1
General Tormek Questions / Re: Self contained knife jig based on Ionut-Herman jig
« on: April 01, 2013, 07:27:14 pm »
That's a great jig you've put together there Elden.
Ionut
Ionut
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2
General Tormek Questions / Re: lie-nielson
« on: April 01, 2013, 07:26:30 pm »
Hi John,
For anything O1 A2 White and Blue steels you should use the original 220 Tormek stone, it is far more effective than the black stone, also the black stone will glaze faster with these steels. It will cut but in my experience will cut slower than the more friable original stone.
I also have few so called A2 LN chisels but somehow for me they only feel as A2 only during sharpening and not during use.
Ionut
For anything O1 A2 White and Blue steels you should use the original 220 Tormek stone, it is far more effective than the black stone, also the black stone will glaze faster with these steels. It will cut but in my experience will cut slower than the more friable original stone.
I also have few so called A2 LN chisels but somehow for me they only feel as A2 only during sharpening and not during use.
Ionut
3
General Tormek Questions / Re: Rusting of edge tools
« on: March 26, 2013, 08:28:36 pm »
Rust is a crazy menace. A roof and sidewalls are far from being a guarantee against this menace. My hole in the wall that I have the audacity to call my shop was for a long time not heated and featured the roof and the walls but here on the coast that really means nothing. I have constantly fought the rust on my tools and even uglier joinery ghostly movements. This has stopped or was slowed down drastically when I installed my radiant heater that also makes it more comfortable as well.
A proper cutting edge measures few tens thousands of an inch or less, at that size the oxidation process takes cyclonic proportions. Even while using the tools it is good to have a rag with some light oil on and to give a swipe once in a while to the tool being used. Or just apply a bit of wax once in a while.
Rust will never stop until the steel is gone…
Ionut
A proper cutting edge measures few tens thousands of an inch or less, at that size the oxidation process takes cyclonic proportions. Even while using the tools it is good to have a rag with some light oil on and to give a swipe once in a while to the tool being used. Or just apply a bit of wax once in a while.
Rust will never stop until the steel is gone…
Ionut
4
General Tormek Questions / Re: Angle master WM-200......subtle clarification in use
« on: March 26, 2013, 05:16:20 pm »
If the difference is that small I wouldn't bother much unless it is about a paring chisel which I usually, or you really want a spot on bevel angle.
What you experience is rust, if you don't protect your edge with a bit of light oil after sharpening, even if you don't use the tools after a while they don't seem to be having the same keen edge.
Ionut
What you experience is rust, if you don't protect your edge with a bit of light oil after sharpening, even if you don't use the tools after a while they don't seem to be having the same keen edge.
Ionut
5
General Tormek Questions / Re: New SVM-00 Small Knife Jig
« on: March 26, 2013, 05:02:32 pm »
Well I am not sure about that news, you Jeff not working directly for the Tormek, is that something recent? It doesn't sound good to me, what happened?
Yes that's what I have expected the new jig looks to be a bit too complex to be put together over night and be ready for retail as well at the same time and on the top of everything it doesn;t have any connection with the platform that emerged from this forum.
All the best,
Ionut
Yes that's what I have expected the new jig looks to be a bit too complex to be put together over night and be ready for retail as well at the same time and on the top of everything it doesn;t have any connection with the platform that emerged from this forum.
All the best,
Ionut
6
General Tormek Questions / Re: About BGM-100
« on: March 26, 2013, 06:25:58 am »
Hi Don,
The content of the BGM is listed below, the instruction manual is available online on the Tormek site, the universal support it is obviously threaded. Youc an also check to see if the horizontal base is not available by itself to not have to buy the entie BGM package. It may be available as an individual part so you could replace the one with one screw you already have.
Contents: Bench Grinder Mounting Set BGM-100
• Universal Support with Micro Adjust 1 pc
• Base for the Universal Support 1 pc
• Height adjustable block 56–89 mm (23/16–3½") 1 set
• Rubber feet 4 pcs
• BGM-10 Handbook 1 pc
• Profile Labels 1 set
• Bolt M6×12 with nut and washer 4 pcs
• Bolt M5×16 with nut and washer 4 pcs
• Bolt M6×40 with nut and washer 4 pcs
All the best,
Ionut
The content of the BGM is listed below, the instruction manual is available online on the Tormek site, the universal support it is obviously threaded. Youc an also check to see if the horizontal base is not available by itself to not have to buy the entie BGM package. It may be available as an individual part so you could replace the one with one screw you already have.
Contents: Bench Grinder Mounting Set BGM-100
• Universal Support with Micro Adjust 1 pc
• Base for the Universal Support 1 pc
• Height adjustable block 56–89 mm (23/16–3½") 1 set
• Rubber feet 4 pcs
• BGM-10 Handbook 1 pc
• Profile Labels 1 set
• Bolt M6×12 with nut and washer 4 pcs
• Bolt M5×16 with nut and washer 4 pcs
• Bolt M6×40 with nut and washer 4 pcs
All the best,
Ionut
7
General Tormek Questions / Re: japanese waterstone
« on: March 26, 2013, 06:17:27 am »
Hi John,
I don't remember all the details because I've installed that stone years ago and never took it off since. But I remember there was a washer and to me it seemed logic, I have used both the old and the new provided one and sandwiched the stone between them. I didn't see a video available in those days but it may have been available somewhere also I don't believe the small paper note said anything about the installations steps or not, as I said it happened long ago. Use both washers, if not to nut may dig in the stone as you tighten it.
Let me know what's happening.
All the best,
Ionut
I don't remember all the details because I've installed that stone years ago and never took it off since. But I remember there was a washer and to me it seemed logic, I have used both the old and the new provided one and sandwiched the stone between them. I didn't see a video available in those days but it may have been available somewhere also I don't believe the small paper note said anything about the installations steps or not, as I said it happened long ago. Use both washers, if not to nut may dig in the stone as you tighten it.
Let me know what's happening.
All the best,
Ionut
8
General Tormek Questions / Re: New SVM-00 Small Knife Jig
« on: March 25, 2013, 11:10:21 pm »
The problem may still happen with parallel side knives of different thickness than the extension that is being clamped in the original knife jig. It can be argued that both situations are being acceptable given the fact the bevels are very small anyways.
I believe that just setting the small knife visually in the clamp, without referencing a hardtop surface, will give closer bevel angles on the opposite sides.
Ionut
I believe that just setting the small knife visually in the clamp, without referencing a hardtop surface, will give closer bevel angles on the opposite sides.
Ionut
9
General Tormek Questions / Re: Angle master WM-200......subtle clarification in use
« on: March 25, 2013, 08:26:26 pm »
One more thing to add to this chapter, once in a while you may decide to change the bevel angle to a lower one, for example from 30 to 25 degrees on a tool and when the initial angle is set the cutting edge is never touch the stone, the rear end of the bevel is. So if your initial angle set looks correct, due to the grinding action that will remove first the rear end of the bevel and only towards the end will touch the edge, the effective angle on the cutting edge will change. Therefore if you want precise bevel angle when the stone starts touching the cutting edge or it is very close to it, I would suggest to stop the grinding and set the angle again for the same 25. Depending on the blade thickness you may easily end with a 27-28 degrees bevel angle even though your initial aim was for 25 if this resetting of the angle is not done.
Ionut
Ionut
10
General Tormek Questions / Re: japanese waterstone
« on: March 25, 2013, 06:43:44 am »
There should be no difference between a full bevel polished and one with only a microbevel polished, if done in the same manner and in regards of how those edges would perform and of course if the microbevel would match the full bevel angle.
The microbevel is a sharpening shortcut and nothing more, it reduces the amount of polishing required due to the less surface to be polished and a bit steeper angle which ensures that the actual cutting edge is touched. the back side of the coin when microbevel are used is the fact that the next sharpening session requires more steel removal to create a burr, which can be argued to be acceptable as this step is done with a medium stone anywhere around 1000 stone. Another disadvantage is when this microbevel is applied to Japanese woodworking tools. The steel that makes the cutting edge is much harder than O1 and A2 steels and tempered much higher which creates a more brittle steel. The microbevel in this case will create a small area where the hard steel has no support and will lead to more micro-chipping in normal use and will require re-sharpening more often. In the context of the Japanese chisels there is another disadvantage in my opinion, these tolls due to their larger bevels can be very reliably used bevel down to do cleanup work of any kind. A microbevel in this case would definitelly not help.
In past I have used microbevel but I have abandoned them.
The mirror polish deosn't really mean the tool is sharp, there are abrasives that will never get the tool as shiny as one would expect, like silicon oxide, also the natural Japanese stones usually don't get such a mirror shine on the tools but they extremely sharp. The steel also has to do with the level of shine as well, the powdered metal tools don't get as shiny either with some abrasives. The most shine is provided by aluminum oxide, but again the extra shine or mirror polish on the tool does not necessarily mean the tool is sharp as it can be.
All the best,
Ionut
The microbevel is a sharpening shortcut and nothing more, it reduces the amount of polishing required due to the less surface to be polished and a bit steeper angle which ensures that the actual cutting edge is touched. the back side of the coin when microbevel are used is the fact that the next sharpening session requires more steel removal to create a burr, which can be argued to be acceptable as this step is done with a medium stone anywhere around 1000 stone. Another disadvantage is when this microbevel is applied to Japanese woodworking tools. The steel that makes the cutting edge is much harder than O1 and A2 steels and tempered much higher which creates a more brittle steel. The microbevel in this case will create a small area where the hard steel has no support and will lead to more micro-chipping in normal use and will require re-sharpening more often. In the context of the Japanese chisels there is another disadvantage in my opinion, these tolls due to their larger bevels can be very reliably used bevel down to do cleanup work of any kind. A microbevel in this case would definitelly not help.
In past I have used microbevel but I have abandoned them.
The mirror polish deosn't really mean the tool is sharp, there are abrasives that will never get the tool as shiny as one would expect, like silicon oxide, also the natural Japanese stones usually don't get such a mirror shine on the tools but they extremely sharp. The steel also has to do with the level of shine as well, the powdered metal tools don't get as shiny either with some abrasives. The most shine is provided by aluminum oxide, but again the extra shine or mirror polish on the tool does not necessarily mean the tool is sharp as it can be.
All the best,
Ionut
11
General Tormek Questions / Re: New SVM-00 Small Knife Jig
« on: March 24, 2013, 04:48:40 pm »
This jig has a major issue regarding setting the angle for non-parallel side knives, if the procedure of setting the angle is followed as per the video clip presented by Tormek the knives will end with different bevel angles on both side.
Having Tormek pursuing the solution that came out from this forum may render all their knife jigs pretty much useless, that is why in their design of this new small knife jig they made use of the older one and I don't see anything wrong with this.
In regards to the patents, enforcing patent holding may be a very expensive besides none of the copies I have seen get even close in the quality provided by Tormek but this is mainly a matter of time I believe. As you could see none of these copies offer the latest SE-76 type of straight edge jig or the same model of truing device, they all follow the older versions that Tormek had in the past. Enforcing a patent also doesn't mean that nobody else can use the idea, it means that nobody else can use it without paying some tribute to the original holder of the patent, there may also be a period of time after which you can use someone's patent without having to pay anymore for it.
This type of machine is really not new, I am not sure if Tormek holds a patent on the entire machine, my grandfather had a wet grinder with a humongous wheel at least 30cm if not larger, the grinding surface was around 4 inches and the so called tray was actually the body of the device, the motor were my grandfather's feet and the whole thing was made of wood but essentially was following the same principle.
Ionut
Having Tormek pursuing the solution that came out from this forum may render all their knife jigs pretty much useless, that is why in their design of this new small knife jig they made use of the older one and I don't see anything wrong with this.
In regards to the patents, enforcing patent holding may be a very expensive besides none of the copies I have seen get even close in the quality provided by Tormek but this is mainly a matter of time I believe. As you could see none of these copies offer the latest SE-76 type of straight edge jig or the same model of truing device, they all follow the older versions that Tormek had in the past. Enforcing a patent also doesn't mean that nobody else can use the idea, it means that nobody else can use it without paying some tribute to the original holder of the patent, there may also be a period of time after which you can use someone's patent without having to pay anymore for it.
This type of machine is really not new, I am not sure if Tormek holds a patent on the entire machine, my grandfather had a wet grinder with a humongous wheel at least 30cm if not larger, the grinding surface was around 4 inches and the so called tray was actually the body of the device, the motor were my grandfather's feet and the whole thing was made of wood but essentially was following the same principle.
Ionut
12
General Tormek Questions / Re: Torlok investigation as tool rest for small knives
« on: March 23, 2013, 07:15:37 pm »
Hi Rob,
It would work if you cut the platform to match the stone width, grind the back of the jig to a thin edge that would allow you to get your knife as close to the stone as possible. But I wouldn't suggest you to mess with it, a wooden, aluminum or plastic platform mounted over it will give you more flexibility in setting the angle. I see in one of the pictures the way you measure the angles, that will give you incorrect results if it wasn't done by intention. The lower corner of the black plastic angle indicator has to touch the stone in order to obtain the correct bevel angle.
All the best,
Ionut
It would work if you cut the platform to match the stone width, grind the back of the jig to a thin edge that would allow you to get your knife as close to the stone as possible. But I wouldn't suggest you to mess with it, a wooden, aluminum or plastic platform mounted over it will give you more flexibility in setting the angle. I see in one of the pictures the way you measure the angles, that will give you incorrect results if it wasn't done by intention. The lower corner of the black plastic angle indicator has to touch the stone in order to obtain the correct bevel angle.
All the best,
Ionut
13
General Tormek Questions / Re: japanese waterstone
« on: March 23, 2013, 07:55:49 am »
... and on the top of everything, using the offset I was talking earlier about, you could use the 4000 stone to put a microbevel if you like them instead of polishing the entire bevel and that would probably take humongous amount of 2-3 seconds or swipes per tool. This is not really necessary having a motorized sharpening tool, it is an option though.
Ionut
Ionut
14
General Tormek Questions / Re: japanese waterstone
« on: March 23, 2013, 07:44:12 am »
Hi John,
The Tormek Japanese 4000 stone is a great stone, walking requires more finesse so running sometimes is easier and will teach you how to walk properly.
First, if the stone was badly wobbly it should have been returned, this is not acceptable in Tormek language.
Second 3-4 mm of truing is humongous for that stone what am I saying here, for any stone, When you true it you have to take less material in one pass than you use to take from the 220 one even if you have to take multiple passes. I would suggest you to start the truing from the left side of the stone in this way because the diamond tip is closer to the universal support posts when it gets to the opposite side, there will be less vibrations and less chipping on that side than if you would do it the other way around.
This is a polishing stone not a material removal stone, it is supposed to refine the edge form a 1000 setting of the original stone so don't expect any major steel removal as this stone was not designed for that. For polishing is far more efficient than the honing wheel in giving you a 4000 edge, and with no risk of rounding over the edge like it may happen with using the leather wheel if not done properly. The small ridges and valley left by the 1000 abrasive will be quickly levelled to give you a perfect straight edge. If the 1000 grading of the 220 stone is not done properly the honing wheel only will not polish properly the edge and will never be able to get you the straight levelled edge that would be required for a really long lasting extremely sharp edge it will give you more of a rounded spikes edge that has a polished appearance. The 4000 stone will always give you and precise straight polished at 4000 edge.
Now every abrasive will create a burr regardless the size of the abrasive used, the only thing that changes is the size of the burr which is proportional to the size of abrasive used, so if you had troubles with the burr was because of two possible reasons, either you were not really working the edge, or your fingers are extremely sensitive. After a proper 1000 grading and a proper angle set with the 4000 stone you should have not had to work more than 30 seconds on the edge and if you feel a burr after that the burr should be far smaller and weaker than the one left by the graded 1000. I personally have hard times feeling a burr after 4000 stone, but my fingers have a thick skin.
The manual states to not use the honing wheel after the 4000 stone but I would suggest you to use it only not in the same way as you would after the 1000 grading of the original stone. As I said the 4000 will create a small burr or will reduce the 1000 to a 4000 one, and I was able to see it with a cheap small microscope so a bit of honing wheel use will be effective in dealing with it. Tormek claims the honing compound is a mixture of 3, 2, 1 micron aluminum oxide based abrasive, but if you get a dab of it and rub it between your fingers you will feel the grit between your fingers which suggest that either the abrasives are present as lumps in that paste or they are not the claimed size. The good thing though is that immediately after starting using the paste these particles will break down so they will be the most efficient in dealing with a 1000 abraded steel and then by braking down in finer particles will do more of a finer polishing action. In my experience using the honing wheel after the 4000 stone freshly loaded with honing compound will defeat most benefits of the 4000 stone so I would suggest you to use a bit worn out compound after the 4000 stone. In my case I was able to put together a 1 - 0.3 micron honing compound that I use after the 4000 stone which is giving me fantastic edges for a "heavy" machine like Tormek Honing on the leather wheel is also very fast and does not require any extra pressure, you only have to remove a 4000 burr which is very small.
Now because you have a second stone to your machine your workflow has to be a bit different. First the wheels will never have the same diameter and if they will, it will happen for a short period of time. So I suggest you to find the offset of your wheels and use it in order to blindly set the angle on the 4000 stone, After finishing with 1000 put the 4000 wheel in place and using the marker method find the exact amount and the direction you had to move the adjusting wheel in order to match the bevel angle. Use that offset every time when you switch the wheels and you'll get perfect results. But be careful, the wearing rate of the stones will be different so once in a while depending on how much sharpening you do you will have to update this offset. Also because you probably have one machine I would suggest you to make a template that would allow you to project each tool the same amount from the SE76 which would result in the same bevel angle for the same adjusting wheel position.. For woodworking you could have 25-30-35 degrees projections or more on that template and you could group the tools based on the bevel angle, and first use the original stone for all the tools and then mount the 4000 stone to polish all of them, so you will not have to spend 30 seconds between tools to change the stones. To be sure though you would obtain the best results you would also want to change the water in the tray when you change to the 4000 stone, so you don't run the risk of mixing 220 grit with 4000 which only results in a waste of time and steel.
And I promise this will be my last suggestion, in one of the older threads I was talking about marking the wheels to avoid small manufacturing or wear imprecision that may results in non square edges or non matching ones. Mark the shaft, the stones and the washers, and always mount the stones aligning all these marks. When you do this first time you will have to true the stones taking the minimum necessary so when you change the stone the grinding surface of the new mounted stone will match the other one regarding the square-ness in relation to the universal support.
You will soon discover how much sharper your tools get.
All the best,
Ionut
The Tormek Japanese 4000 stone is a great stone, walking requires more finesse so running sometimes is easier and will teach you how to walk properly.
First, if the stone was badly wobbly it should have been returned, this is not acceptable in Tormek language.
Second 3-4 mm of truing is humongous for that stone what am I saying here, for any stone, When you true it you have to take less material in one pass than you use to take from the 220 one even if you have to take multiple passes. I would suggest you to start the truing from the left side of the stone in this way because the diamond tip is closer to the universal support posts when it gets to the opposite side, there will be less vibrations and less chipping on that side than if you would do it the other way around.
This is a polishing stone not a material removal stone, it is supposed to refine the edge form a 1000 setting of the original stone so don't expect any major steel removal as this stone was not designed for that. For polishing is far more efficient than the honing wheel in giving you a 4000 edge, and with no risk of rounding over the edge like it may happen with using the leather wheel if not done properly. The small ridges and valley left by the 1000 abrasive will be quickly levelled to give you a perfect straight edge. If the 1000 grading of the 220 stone is not done properly the honing wheel only will not polish properly the edge and will never be able to get you the straight levelled edge that would be required for a really long lasting extremely sharp edge it will give you more of a rounded spikes edge that has a polished appearance. The 4000 stone will always give you and precise straight polished at 4000 edge.
Now every abrasive will create a burr regardless the size of the abrasive used, the only thing that changes is the size of the burr which is proportional to the size of abrasive used, so if you had troubles with the burr was because of two possible reasons, either you were not really working the edge, or your fingers are extremely sensitive. After a proper 1000 grading and a proper angle set with the 4000 stone you should have not had to work more than 30 seconds on the edge and if you feel a burr after that the burr should be far smaller and weaker than the one left by the graded 1000. I personally have hard times feeling a burr after 4000 stone, but my fingers have a thick skin.
The manual states to not use the honing wheel after the 4000 stone but I would suggest you to use it only not in the same way as you would after the 1000 grading of the original stone. As I said the 4000 will create a small burr or will reduce the 1000 to a 4000 one, and I was able to see it with a cheap small microscope so a bit of honing wheel use will be effective in dealing with it. Tormek claims the honing compound is a mixture of 3, 2, 1 micron aluminum oxide based abrasive, but if you get a dab of it and rub it between your fingers you will feel the grit between your fingers which suggest that either the abrasives are present as lumps in that paste or they are not the claimed size. The good thing though is that immediately after starting using the paste these particles will break down so they will be the most efficient in dealing with a 1000 abraded steel and then by braking down in finer particles will do more of a finer polishing action. In my experience using the honing wheel after the 4000 stone freshly loaded with honing compound will defeat most benefits of the 4000 stone so I would suggest you to use a bit worn out compound after the 4000 stone. In my case I was able to put together a 1 - 0.3 micron honing compound that I use after the 4000 stone which is giving me fantastic edges for a "heavy" machine like Tormek Honing on the leather wheel is also very fast and does not require any extra pressure, you only have to remove a 4000 burr which is very small.
Now because you have a second stone to your machine your workflow has to be a bit different. First the wheels will never have the same diameter and if they will, it will happen for a short period of time. So I suggest you to find the offset of your wheels and use it in order to blindly set the angle on the 4000 stone, After finishing with 1000 put the 4000 wheel in place and using the marker method find the exact amount and the direction you had to move the adjusting wheel in order to match the bevel angle. Use that offset every time when you switch the wheels and you'll get perfect results. But be careful, the wearing rate of the stones will be different so once in a while depending on how much sharpening you do you will have to update this offset. Also because you probably have one machine I would suggest you to make a template that would allow you to project each tool the same amount from the SE76 which would result in the same bevel angle for the same adjusting wheel position.. For woodworking you could have 25-30-35 degrees projections or more on that template and you could group the tools based on the bevel angle, and first use the original stone for all the tools and then mount the 4000 stone to polish all of them, so you will not have to spend 30 seconds between tools to change the stones. To be sure though you would obtain the best results you would also want to change the water in the tray when you change to the 4000 stone, so you don't run the risk of mixing 220 grit with 4000 which only results in a waste of time and steel.
And I promise this will be my last suggestion, in one of the older threads I was talking about marking the wheels to avoid small manufacturing or wear imprecision that may results in non square edges or non matching ones. Mark the shaft, the stones and the washers, and always mount the stones aligning all these marks. When you do this first time you will have to true the stones taking the minimum necessary so when you change the stone the grinding surface of the new mounted stone will match the other one regarding the square-ness in relation to the universal support.
You will soon discover how much sharper your tools get.
All the best,
Ionut
15
General Tormek Questions / Re: Ionut's Small Knife Jig
« on: March 21, 2013, 10:02:14 pm »
Hi Herman,
The length and thickness become an issue in relation to the allowed angles and clearances, when the small platform is being fixed on the Tormek jig.
If clamping it doesn’t give you the clearance or you want a more definitive solution that would allow you more flexibility I would suggest routing at the place where your bolts are , two lengthwise slots right through the platform, one with a ½ “ bit and one with ¼ bit. The ½ one would be probably only 1/8 deep but the ¼ one would go all through the platform in the center of the first one. That would allow you to use T-slot screws that would be flush with the upper surface of the platform, and you could have underneath some wing nuts or anything similar and you will be able to move the platform closer or further away from the stone depending on what you want to achieve. I believe 2” long slots would give you enough adjustment for almost anything you want. Before getting the UMHW you could try to experiment with the wooden version, before you commit for a definitive solution and se what is fitting your needs better.
Ionut
The length and thickness become an issue in relation to the allowed angles and clearances, when the small platform is being fixed on the Tormek jig.
If clamping it doesn’t give you the clearance or you want a more definitive solution that would allow you more flexibility I would suggest routing at the place where your bolts are , two lengthwise slots right through the platform, one with a ½ “ bit and one with ¼ bit. The ½ one would be probably only 1/8 deep but the ¼ one would go all through the platform in the center of the first one. That would allow you to use T-slot screws that would be flush with the upper surface of the platform, and you could have underneath some wing nuts or anything similar and you will be able to move the platform closer or further away from the stone depending on what you want to achieve. I believe 2” long slots would give you enough adjustment for almost anything you want. Before getting the UMHW you could try to experiment with the wooden version, before you commit for a definitive solution and se what is fitting your needs better.
Ionut