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In the Shop => General Tormek Questions => Topic started by: wootz on May 27, 2016, 02:20:40 am

Title: Truing Procedure
Post by: wootz on May 27, 2016, 02:20:40 am
Jeff Farris wrote somewhere in this forum that the Truing Tool prototype didn't have as much play, but as users found the head too tight to move across, more play was added. I can imagine, that when Tormek later introduced the Japanese stone, it would be too costly for them to modify production line for TT-50, even if chipping was reported.

By now I've trued 6 stones (Japanese, SB, SG) using Ionut's approach, and the results are fabulous, minimal grooves and no edge chipping.
Below I detail my truing procedure, where I shamelessly use Ionut's ideas to reduce the Truing Tool play, and even wording, as why should I change a word in what had been said well enough.

- True on a stable non-vibrating base, e.g. for truing I move my Tormek to a different bench that is heavier and more stable than what I use for sharpening.

- Mark the shaft, the washer, and your grindwheels and always mount the stones aligning all these marks to compensate for manufacturing or wear imprecision that may result in non matching edges of your blade; so when you change the stone the grinding surface of the new mounted stone will match the other one in relation to the universal support. Doing so I don't end having to true the stones needlessly as I change them.
(Now and then I refresh the markings.)
(http://home.exetel.com.au/dropbox/Truing1.JPG)

- If the grindwheel  hasn't been used today, before truing let your Japanese stone run idle for about 30 min to soak water (SG or SB stone for 10 min).

- Locking down the truing tool on the Universal Support, press the Universal Support downwards over the left post with the adjusting wheel. Don't press left or right of that point. The Universal Support has a bit of play and the only reference point or surface that you can rely on is the adjusting wheel and the base in which the left post is being inserted. The Universal Support play translates on its horizontal bar into up to probably 2-3 degrees in the effective sharpening area. Because of that, if you apply pressure on the extremities you may start out of square from the beginning.
This step is stated in the Tormek Manual, but often overlooked.
Unlike shown in the manual, press with one finger only.
(http://home.exetel.com.au/dropbox/manual_picture.jpg)

Remember to do the same each time you mount the Universal Support for sharpening.

- To minimise the TT-50 diamond head play, I used 2.5mm wide x 200mm long cable tie (a 150mm long may just suffice as well). You only need to tie it moderately, enough to back up the diamond housing to it's riding platform and to allow you to rotate the knobs.
(http://home.exetel.com.au/dropbox/Truing2.JPG)
(The ragged grindwheel edge you can see in this picture is from previous truing done before using the method I describe.)

- Do not rest your hands on the Universal Support or TT-50 while truing - only rotate the truing tool knobs with your fingers with no downwards pressure on them.

- Start from the side with the highest point on the stone. Turn the US adjusting wheel by 1/12 (half a digit) when adjusting the depth of truing.
Having finished the first run across the stone, lower the diamond tip by a quarter of the digit, and run in the opposite direction; you have to run in both directions because of the wear of the diamond tip by the end of the first run you finish somewhat higher.

- The manual suggests for the truing not going slower than 90 seconds, but with this modification I'd say spend at least  90 seconds, I usually spend 2 minutes to move across the stone.
While truing, do not pause and maintain the same speed.

- Lower the Universal Support on the stone to check they are parallel (remember to press over the left post with the adjusting wheel). I just take out the Universal Support with the TT-50 locked on it, and use another Universal Support for this so that I could resume truing if need be.

For declogging & cleaning Japanese stones I use the following (in order of preference):
- a diamond plate  in the Tormek Square Edge jig;
- Nagura stone;
- fine side of the Tormek grading stone, flat only, but never corners, and parallel to the wheel, not accross.

As the diamond plate I use the cheapest plates I could find on eBay; the one in the picture is 1mm thick  and cost me $5 delivered. Had to clamp it together with a plane iron on the top for rigidity.
#80 diamond plate for the #200 stone;
#400 diamond plate for the #800-1000 stone;
#1000 diamond plate for the #4000 stone (SJ).
Make sure the plate contacts the stone by its surface, not the end, and lightly press with fingertips.

The diamond plate is preferred because this method will keep the surface of the stone always parallel with the universal support.
A quote of Ionut's about the diamond plate: "In fact between sharpening when using finer stones I use this method to cleanup and flatten the grinding surface of the stone about 50 times until I will use the TT50 again to make sure the wheel is not out of round."
(http://home.exetel.com.au/dropbox/Truing3.JPG)

You will soon discover how much sharper your tools get.
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: Jan on May 27, 2016, 09:48:15 am
Wootz,

Thank you very much for posting detailed description of your truing procedure which incorporates Ionut’s ideas.  :)

It is well structured, and thanks the images, an easy understandable instruction list for truing. I especially resonate with the marking procedure for shaft, washer and wheel. I am always tormented when I have to remove quite recently trued grindstone. "No man ever steps in the same river twice." :(

There is only one minor point which attracted the attention of my overcritical mind. The sentence reads:

"- Drop US on the stone to check they are parallel. I just take out the Universal Support with the TT-50 locked on it, and use another Universal Support for this so that I could resume truing if need be."

I think you understand what I am afraid about when another Universal Support is used. I also have two Universal Supports, but when I am sharpening a really valuable knife or tool, I always use the same Universal Support for truing and sharpening. This effectively eliminates the effect of potential non-squarness of the Universal Support.  ;)

Once again, thanks for your very useful post.

Jan
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: wootz on May 27, 2016, 10:57:47 am
I was slack in that part, Jan, and stay corrected. Shortcuts kill precision, don't they?

As I and other new-starters kept repeating the same mistakes with truing, especially Japanese stone, I posted this procedure in the General section to ensure it gets the attention it deserves.
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: Ken S on May 27, 2016, 10:45:57 pm
It is most unfortunate that Torgny Jansson passed away several years ago. As an engineer dedicated to his Tormek, he would have keenly appreciated our more technical recent posts.

Ken
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: Ken S on May 28, 2016, 02:00:58 am
Wootz has posted a very good suggestion. Small electrical ties ("Cable ties" to us old phone men) are very inexpensive and easy to work with. Trying the Wootz/Ionut suggestion will take only a minute to install. I suggest we all try it. Either we will love it, or not. Removing the tie takes only another minute at most. Let's go for it.

Ken
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: Ken S on January 29, 2018, 11:48:57 am
I think you understand what I am afraid about when another Universal Support is used. I also have two Universal Supports, but when I am sharpening a really valuable knife or tool, I always use the same Universal Support for truing and sharpening. This effectively eliminates the effect of potential non-squarness of the Universal Support.  ;)

Once again, thanks for your very useful post.

Jan
[/quote]

I have a very simple solution to using multiple universal support bars. I have several, including the US-103 which comes with the T4. It is 10mm shorter, to match the T4's 200x40mm grinding wheel. I made a white tape label with "T4” and wrapped it around the top of the nonthreaded vertical leg of the support bar. Labels with numbers or Roman numerals; different color electrical tape; or for just two bars, tape (or an electrical tie) and no tape or tie would make identifying different support bars easy.

Is Jan being too picky? Possibly, however, I have never known him to be wrong. I would prefer to follow his lead on this and be on the safe side.

From this same topic, Wootz, we all shamelessly borrow ideas. There is no shame it. In your case, you have borrowed from the best. Ionut is very experienced and innovative. He has moved on to other interests. I miss both him and his ideas.

Ken
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: ericbcockerill on September 25, 2018, 02:36:10 pm
I have recently acquired a second hand T3 which is in very good condition but arrived without the TT50 truing tool. So I bought one, but was disappointed when using it to experience vibration resulting in a very irregular wheel surface. Having looked on this forum for advice I tried the cable tie idea which improved things slightly. However, applying my engineering background to the problem I could see that apart from (in my opinion) the poor design of the diamond cutter carrier another reason was the Universal Support which waves about in the breeze at it’s free end! This is not a problem while sharpening tools but definitely is during truing operations.
I have mounted my machine on a stout wooden base and fitted an aluminium bracket to support the free end of the Universal Support. This has a removable and adjustable plate to allow for height adjustment. This has solved the vibration problem and I now can true the wheel surface perfectly and I am very pleased with the results of chisel and scissor sharpening.
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: RickKrung on September 25, 2018, 05:19:52 pm
I have recently acquired a second hand T3 which is in very good condition but arrived without the TT50 truing tool. So I bought one, but was disappointed when using it to experience vibration resulting in a very irregular wheel surface. Having looked on this forum for advice I tried the cable tie idea which improved things slightly. However, applying my engineering background to the problem I could see that apart from (in my opinion) the poor design of the diamond cutter carrier another reason was the Universal Support which waves about in the breeze at it’s free end! This is not a problem while sharpening tools but definitely is during truing operations.
I have mounted my machine on a stout wooden base and fitted an aluminium bracket to support the free end of the Universal Support. This has a removable and adjustable plate to allow for height adjustment. This has solved the vibration problem and I now can true the wheel surface perfectly and I am very pleased with the results of chisel and scissor sharpening.

Eric,

Thanks for posting this solution.  I have been bothered by that vibration - chatter - that results in a diagonal ridge pattern on the outer side of the stone.  Last winter, I developed a motorized truing tool that greatly reduced slop in the truing tool but cannot solve all of the vibration due to the design and function of the unsupported end of the USB.  I've been pondering a solution just as you have described.  Thanks for this and I may be motivated now to do similar. 

Rick
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: Elden on September 25, 2018, 10:00:02 pm
Excellent idea! Thank you for posting it.
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: mat450 on June 28, 2019, 12:07:18 pm
Jeff Farris wrote somewhere in this forum that the Truing Tool prototype didn't have as much play, but as users found the head too tight to move across, more play was added. I can imagine, that when Tormek later introduced the Japanese stone, it would be too costly for them to modify production line for TT-50, even if chipping was reported.

By now I've trued 6 stones (Japanese, SB, SG) using Ionut's approach, and the results are fabulous, minimal grooves and no edge chipping.
Below I detail my truing procedure, where I shamelessly use Ionut's ideas to reduce the Truing Tool play, and even wording, as why should I change a word in what had been said well enough.

- True on a stable non-vibrating base, e.g. for truing I move my Tormek to a different bench that is heavier and more stable than what I use for sharpening.

- Mark the shaft, the washer, and your grindwheels and always mount the stones aligning all these marks to compensate for manufacturing or wear imprecision that may result in non matching edges of your blade; so when you change the stone the grinding surface of the new mounted stone will match the other one in relation to the universal support. Doing so I don't end having to true the stones needlessly as I change them.
(Now and then I refresh the markings.)
(http://home.exetel.com.au/dropbox/Truing1.JPG)

- If the grindwheel  hasn't been used today, before truing let your Japanese stone run idle for about 30 min to soak water (SG or SB stone for 10 min).

- Locking down the truing tool on the Universal Support, press the Universal Support downwards over the left post with the adjusting wheel. Don't press left or right of that point. The Universal Support has a bit of play and the only reference point or surface that you can rely on is the adjusting wheel and the base in which the left post is being inserted. The Universal Support play translates on its horizontal bar into up to probably 2-3 degrees in the effective sharpening area. Because of that, if you apply pressure on the extremities you may start out of square from the beginning.
This step is stated in the Tormek Manual, but often overlooked.
Unlike shown in the manual, press with one finger only.
(http://home.exetel.com.au/dropbox/manual_picture.jpg)

Remember to do the same each time you mount the Universal Support for sharpening.

- To minimise the TT-50 diamond head play, I used 2.5mm wide x 200mm long cable tie (a 150mm long may just suffice as well). You only need to tie it moderately, enough to back up the diamond housing to it's riding platform and to allow you to rotate the knobs.
(http://home.exetel.com.au/dropbox/Truing2.JPG)
(The ragged grindwheel edge you can see in this picture is from previous truing done before using the method I describe.)

- Do not rest your hands on the Universal Support or TT-50 while truing - only rotate the truing tool knobs with your fingers with no downwards pressure on them.

- Start from the side with the highest point on the stone. Turn the US adjusting wheel by 1/12 (half a digit) when adjusting the depth of truing.
Having finished the first run across the stone, lower the diamond tip by a quarter of the digit, and run in the opposite direction; you have to run in both directions because of the wear of the diamond tip by the end of the first run you finish somewhat higher.

- The manual suggests for the truing not going slower than 90 seconds, but with this modification I'd say spend at least  90 seconds, I usually spend 2 minutes to move across the stone.
While truing, do not pause and maintain the same speed.

- Lower the Universal Support on the stone to check they are parallel (remember to press over the left post with the adjusting wheel). I just take out the Universal Support with the TT-50 locked on it, and use another Universal Support for this so that I could resume truing if need be.

For declogging & cleaning Japanese stones I use the following (in order of preference):
- a diamond plate  in the Tormek Square Edge jig;
- Nagura stone;
- fine side of the Tormek grading stone, flat only, but never corners, and parallel to the wheel, not accross.

As the diamond plate I use the cheapest plates I could find on eBay; the one in the picture is 1mm thick  and cost me $5 delivered. Had to clamp it together with a plane iron on the top for rigidity.
#80 diamond plate for the #200 stone;
#400 diamond plate for the #800-1000 stone;
#1000 diamond plate for the #4000 stone (SJ).
Make sure the plate contacts the stone by its surface, not the end, and lightly press with fingertips.

The diamond plate is preferred because this method will keep the surface of the stone always parallel with the universal support.
A quote of Ionut's about the diamond plate: "In fact between sharpening when using finer stones I use this method to cleanup and flatten the grinding surface of the stone about 50 times until I will use the TT50 again to make sure the wheel is not out of round."
(http://home.exetel.com.au/dropbox/Truing3.JPG)

You will soon discover how much sharper your tools get.

Just discovered this post.  What an essential mod, using zip ties to take 'free play'out of diamond cutter head.  Addtionally, using diamond plates to grade and refresh my wheels has stopped the need to re-true stones as often.
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: john.jcb on June 28, 2019, 04:13:16 pm
Mat450, If you have a 2019 TT-50 the zip ties are no longer needed.

See this thread https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=4001.0

Everything else in this thread is still as relevant as when it was written a few years ago.
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: Ken S on June 28, 2019, 04:46:03 pm
John, I agree.

I happen to have both models of the TT-50. I will keep the 2019 version in my ready access drawer, however, I would be just as happy with the older model. I don't presently have electrical ties on my older TT-50. If a notice a problem, I would install them.
Anyone purchasing a new TT-50 now should insist on getting the 2019 model. (Beware, most of the online photos show the older model.) I would suggest anyone happily using the older version continue with it. If you notice any chatter, it's your call. The new TT-50 costs $93 US. A pack of electrical ties costs less than $5.

Ken
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: john.jcb on June 28, 2019, 05:22:16 pm
Ken, would it be possible for you to post a picture of each point out what is different?

I imagine you are one of the few users that have both.
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: Antz on June 29, 2019, 09:01:19 am
Well I tried the zip tie method and trueing my t4 at only 1/4 number at a time and still had chatter. It wasn’t as bad but still left a wavy horrible stone surface. Unusable in my opinion. I wasted 3.5mm of my grinding wheel (went from 198.8mm to 195.4mm)trying to get it nice and flat again and finally left it as good enough for fear of messing it up again. It’s still not flat like how I want it. It’s seems like once you get the “chatter” and start making wavy grooves horizontally acccross the face of the stone it becomes so frustrating to take them out. The trueing tool wants to follow the waves even when backed up with zip ties and just perpetuates the problem. Only solution is to take a deep cut and run the risk of chipping the edge of the stone. I become very frustrated, spent almost 45 minute trueing and still not perfect.

I don’t know if I have a defective trueing tool. Without the zip ties it has about 1/8” of play up and down. Or if I have a defective stone, or a bent shaft. I’m just confused as to why this keeps happening. Could it possibly be the rubber contact wheel out of round causing the shaft to not run straight? I think I’ll have to contact tormek support. Funny thing is I never started having this issue until I used the trueing tool about 7 times between my t8 and t4. From that point it’s been a nightmare.

I tend to think it’s the trueing tool as I had a similar problem last time I trued my t8.

Thanks,
Antz
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: RickKrung on June 29, 2019, 09:38:42 am
Chatter can be very aggravating and troublesome.  I speak from years of metal machining experience.  I've had the worst trouble with chatter when machining aluminum.  The only thing I know of for reducing or getting rid of chatter, once it has started is to go REALLY SLOW.  By slow in this context, I mean slowing down the cutter speed, to some incredibly slow crawls and that doesn't work all the time. 

With chatter on the SG and SB stones, I have had some chatter, but was able to get rid of it by using a very slow feed rate across the stone.  Initially, my truing tool had the zip ties.  I was still having trouble.  I developed a method of holding the truing tool in my right hand to try to dampen the vibrations.  That works reasonably well, but you have to be really careful to not put any pressure, downwards or upwards while the truing is going on.  Difficult to hold the position for 2-3 min., which is the typical time I use for single traverses. 

I read a thread on the forum started by someone who had built a support for the outboard end of the USB.  I don't recall who or when and have not searched for it.  This is an excellent approach and something most could probably do.  First trick is figuring out what to use to hold the USB. Second trick is figuring out how to make it adjustable as the microadjust lowers the USB for the next set of passes.  Then there is figuring out how to mount it to the bench or base of the Tx machine. 

I wasn't satisfied with just holding the USB, so I modified my truing tool to motorize it, but the mods include measures intended to reduce vibration.  Precision threaded shaft, closely machined shaft journals for near press fit with the ball bearings.  Fitting the cutter carrier with a delrin insert tapped with the shaft threads to try to reduce backlash.  I realize this is not an option for most, but it did solve the problem for me. 

I don't know that this will help you much.  I wish you well and hope you get something good from Tormek support. 

Rick
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: Ken S on June 29, 2019, 03:58:01 pm
John, side by side photos and comparisons of the two TT-50 versions is an excellent idea. I will do that and try to have it posted sometime this weekend.

Antz, my very slow truing/dressing technique was a product of great frustration. My problem was glazing rather than being out of true. (I was reshaping a high speed steel turning gouge.) I had to use the truing tool so often that I dedicated a spare support bar to using it. (unnecessary most of the time). By the end of that project, I was very skilled with the truing tool. I could take both shallow and deep cuts with full control. It was like a Tormek boot camp, effective, but not very pleasant. There are better ways to learn.

A week in Sweden, under the watchful eye of an instructor like Stig, would be ideal. Using a well done in depth instructional video, like Tormek has produced for woodturners, is a strong second choice. Alan Holtham , Steve Bottorff, Knife Grinders (Wootz), and Sharpco come to mind as top tier you tubes.

Antz, I think your problem may be with your first pass. It sounds like later pass technique is fine. My gut feeling is that your first pass may be too deep. The first pass should just barely touch only the highest spots of the wheel. The diamonds should not touch most of the wheel. I don't see how one can cut gullies if the cutter doesn't make contact with the low spots.

As you become more proficient with truing, it should only take a few minutes. This will come with focused practice. Use your tuition money (your first grinding wheel) well. Knowledge and experience will make your future wheels work better and last longer.

Hang in there!

Ken

ps It seems logical that sharpening flat chisels and plane blades might tend to flatten the grinding wheel. The inverse is certainly true; gouges will certainly make grooves!
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: Elden on June 30, 2019, 05:55:37 am

I read a thread on the forum started by someone who had built a support for the outboard end of the USB.  I don't recall who or when and have not searched for it. 



https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=3053.msg24823#msg24823
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: RickKrung on June 30, 2019, 06:09:41 am

I read a thread on the forum started by someone who had built a support for the outboard end of the USB.  I don't recall who or when and have not searched for it. 


https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=3053.msg24823#msg24823

Elden, thanks very much for posting this link.  Funny that it is a post earlier in this very thread.  Clearly, I have not done this mod yet, but I think it would be a good idea to do it.  That chatter has always bothered me and it is so unnecessary. 

Rick
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: Elden on June 30, 2019, 06:28:17 am
You are welcome Rick. I had not realized it was in this thread until you said so as I had gone around Robin Hood's barn to find it. I had to say to mysef, duh!
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: Antz on June 30, 2019, 07:39:54 am
Thanks Everyone for all your advice and ideas. Today I tried trueing my SG 200 again. I replaced the zip ties with some thicker stiffer ones, made sure all the locking knobs were extra tight, and started my first pass at the exact height of the wheel.

 I made a “PAINFULLY” slow pass, about 10 minutes. The diamond tooth was barley skimming the highest spots. There actually still was some chatter when I hit the high spots, so I had to slow down even further. There was still chatter with my reduced speed, so I found that if I held the USB very carefully with my pinky’s while turning the knobs with my pointers and thumbs it dampened the chatter somewhat.

 After the first pass I lowered the USB by about 1/5 of a number and started my second pass. Second pass was even more painfully slow (about 20 minutes), I used the techniques I learned from the first pass and held the usb with my pinky’s to dampen vibration, very careful not to put any downward or upward pressure. At any slight hint of chatter I slowed down until I was barley turning the knobs at all and applied a tighter grip with my pinky’s on the usb (still careful not to have any upward or downward pressure). Second pass had contact along the entire wheel. In the end I removed the USB with the trueing tool still attached Incase I had to do a third pass (which I wasn’t looking forward too) and checked the stone with a straight edge and it was finally flat and true. I sharpened one opinel to test it and it felt perfect. Now I’m beat.

I think part of the issue was the stone being out of true was actually causing the tt-50 to “ride” the stone. By that I mean it was actually “pushing” the USB up with the high spots and the rigidity of the usb wanting to push back down causing vibration and chatter. It develops almost a vibrational resonance effect. Once it starts it gets worse. That’s why manually bracing the usb helped get the results I was looking for. So my conclusion is the tt-50 has too much play and the usb is not rigid enough. As the operator you have to compensate for both those issues (zip ties/bracing usb).

I noticed my usb is not as sturdy on my t4 as on my t8, which is probably why I was mainly having this issue trueing my SG200. I think the weight of the t8 helps dampen vibration in the usb. Hopefully my findings can help anyone experiencing this issue. Special thanks to Rick for your specific advice which gave me the idea to brace the usb. Of course bracing it with your fingers as you true is not the ideal solution but it worked.

Now that the stone is finally true I feel that it won’t take nearly as long to true in the future. As long as I don’t let it get out of round as the tt-50 will tend to ride the high spots again.

Kind Regards and thanks to everyone,
Antz
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: RichColvin on June 30, 2019, 04:48:37 pm
All,

I've identified a different approach that I have found to be adequate.

After reading that Wootz noted how the Tormek SP-650 Grading Stone would not de-glaze the SB stone, I purchased a diamond plate to do that.  The one I purchased is the DMT D8X 8-Inch Dia-Sharp Continuous Diamond Extra-Coarse (220 mesh, 60 micron).  I got mine at Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001DZOKNY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 .

The "stone" is large (8" x 3" x 0.38"), and heavy (2.2 lbs).

What I've found is that it does a great job de-glazing the SB stone, but it also smooths out the surface after re-grading the stone (if that is desired).

And, being so course, it happens fast -- probably faster than any other method I've seen.  And, oddly enough, the surface left on the grindstone is quite smooth!

Anyway, just a thought.

Kind regards,
Rich
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: Ken S on July 01, 2019, 02:53:31 am
Rich,
Your post seems like "the ghost of Christmas future" (apologies to Charles Dickens). The stone grader reflects the technology of the 1970s. It works as well now as it did then. However, our expectations and technology have moved on. I think we will see the newer technology becoming part of the Tormek universe. The game is already afoot. Rich, you are one of the pioneers.

Antz,
Your TT-50 difficulties puzzle me. Thirty five years as a telephone troubleshooter have shaped my thought pattern. I don't understand why things do not work for you. I also do not understand why things do work for me. You seem to be following the suggestions I have shared with you correctly. I have not held anything back from you. We should be getting the same results.
I really believe in the value of a forum. We will get to the bottom of this. I will be delighted when we resolve this, regardless of who adds the final piece of the puzzle. Your frustrations will benefit many future Tormekers.

Ken
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: Ken S on July 01, 2019, 03:25:50 pm
Antz,
I "called in the cavalry" (support). Here is their reply:

"The T-4 and T-8 is not the sensitive to vibration as the older T-3 and T-7.
I have read the topic and think his TT-50 may be defective.
If the axial play in the shaft is to large it cause the whole shaft to vibrate, not just the head.
Vi do not accept axial play more the 0,3 mm.
However there is some things that may be considered before we throw the ball on the TT-50.
 
The vibrations can be avoided with these procedures.
 
Use a maximum of 0.25 mm cutting depth. It represents one step on the micro adjust.
 
When lowering the universal support, press only at a point straight above the micro adjust.
Tighten the locking knobs firmly.
 
Feed always from outside of the stone and in.
 
Feed quickly across the stone. Use 30-40 seconds across the stone.
 
Stabilise the universal support with your hands during truing.
 
 
When truing a stone which already have a wavy surface as a result of vibrations, remove the waves with the coarse side of the stone grader SP-650 before you start truing."

Ken

PS If none of these measures, do not give up. Support will stay the course and not abandon you.
Do keep us posted.
 
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: Antz on July 17, 2019, 08:10:15 am
Just received a replacement tt-50 from Tormek. I emailed support and they agreed that what was happening with my tt-50 was not normal. They referred my case to Afinity tool (US importer). Affinity emailed me that same day and sent a replacement. The difference between my old tt-50 and the new replacement is night and day. The new tt-50 has less play and it worked perfectly. Nice smooth cut, no vibration or chatter. I did one pass at .25mm and it fixed the wavy surface that was still present from trueing with my old tt-50. Can’t say enough good things about Tormek support and Afinity support. Fast quick response and ver helpful. Tormek really stands behind their products. First rate products and service.  Big thanks.

Antz
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: Ken S on July 17, 2019, 12:21:13 pm
Well done, Antz!!!

Two of the things I find commendable about Tormek are 1) their willingness to go the extra mile with product support and 2) their willingness to redesign a product which was the state of the art. I will cite several examples of this: The most obvious example is the new 186 gouge jig. When I reviewed the new 186 design, I recommended it even for users presently quite happily using the earlier 185 design.

The new SE-77 square edge jig incorporates adjustable, controlled camber. This is a game changer for hand plane blades.

Tormek felt that the quite reliable TT-50 truing tool could be improved by reducing potential chatter. The new design accomplishes this. The state of the art has been advanced.Tormek continues to evolve.

Keep posting, Antz.

Ken
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: Georgie on July 17, 2019, 06:02:12 pm
Just received a replacement tt-50 from Tormek....The difference between my old tt-50 and the new replacement is night and day. The new tt-50 has less play and it worked perfectly. Nice smooth cut, no vibration or chatter. I did one pass at .25mm and it fixed the wavy surface that was still present from trueing with my old tt-50...

Antz

Outstanding!! Antz that's a great story in more ways than one...when I was reading your post and got to "30 minutes for a pass" I was thinking "really"?? WTH?  Purely from an academic standpoint it makes me wonder where the fault lay in the original TT-50... Like Ken S I have a long history of complex trouble shooting (mine being air monitoring instrumentation) and the "why?" has always intrigued me. Its great its fixed but it would be interesting to "dissect" your old one with a micrometer and compare it with the new simply to see where the fault lay...stamping? assembly?  Regardless its fantastic you're back in the game!

The fact is that I'm impressed with Tormek's response to both you and to Ken's inquiry...I currently have one of the higher end Wicked Edge systems with a full gamut of different paddles but a Tormek has always impressed me. I'm in the process of budgeting for my own T-8. The fact they are so responsive and the group here is so welcoming and knowledagable (without ego I might add) only encourages me to make the full investment.

George
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: john.jcb on July 18, 2019, 12:32:38 am
I have not had an opportunity to contact customer service but from all that I have read they appear to be dedicated to making sure the customer is satisfied. I think most of us have used the equipment without issue as the number of problems raised does seem small.
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: Ken S on July 18, 2019, 01:16:54 pm
John,

When the T4 was introduced in 2014, I had the opportunity to meet personally with the Head of Tormek Support and a representative of the US importer. In our conversation, I asked some polite but very pointed questions about the T4 and warranty service. My main concern was the "thirty minute limitation" with the T4's motor. I asked them point blank what Tormek would do if my T4 motor burned out after six and a half years (of the seven year warranty).

Their answer was quite clear. If this should happen:
1) Contact support
2) Support would send me prepaid ((by Tormek) shipping label
3) Tormek or the importer would replace or repair whatever was necessary (except normal wear to the grinding wheel) and promptly return my machine fully restored to me at no charge.

I believed them at the time. That believe has been reinforced by the few posts over the years which require warranty service. Tormek is a solid company which stands by its products with excellent customer service. Incidentally, I do not recall a single post about someone burning out the motor of a T4.

I should note that Tormek gets few warranty repairs. The product is solid and manufacturing standards high.

I do not mean to give the impression that Tormek gets special treatment with me. Whenever I recommend Tormek support, I always encourage the member to post his results, whether favorable or unsatisfactory. I would not delete a fairly written legitimate complaint. In fact, I have posted some very negative complaints about some of the deceptive online pricing I have encountered. Many of our members are just starting to consider purchasing a Tormek. I want purchasing a Tormek to be a happy experience for them. I want them to receive good, honest advice from the forum to help make their Tormek experience positive. I consistently recommend that new inexperienced buyers buy new machines from an authorized dealer to get the benefits of Tormek's warranty.

In my opinion, the market for used Tormek equipment is generally overpriced. However, like many of the longtime forum members, I would not hesitate to buy an older Tormek at the right price. I want this forum to be the best resource for Tormek users and buyers for both new and older products. Please note that we are not a swap meet. What we swap is experience.

Ken
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: Elden on December 05, 2019, 06:26:17 pm
Bringing this topic back to the front.
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: arnman on December 15, 2019, 12:36:21 am
I never seem to be able to keep my stone round after a few iterations of grading between fine and coarse.

I was going to try using the diamond plate method as shown in Wootz's post.  I already have a few diamond stones (the heavier type, not the thin credit card type). 

This might be a dumb question, but I would rather find out the easy way than the hard way.  Is there a reason why the heavier stones, clamped in the square jig, would not work?  Would using them for stone grading affect them for other uses?
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: Georgie on January 14, 2020, 08:25:46 pm
John, I agree.

I happen to have both models of the TT-50. I will keep the 2019 version in my ready access drawer, however, I would be just as happy with the older model. I don't presently have electrical ties on my older TT-50. If a notice a problem, I would install them.
Anyone purchasing a new TT-50 now should insist on getting the 2019 model. (Beware, most of the online photos show the older model.) I would suggest anyone happily using the older version continue with it. If you notice any chatter, it's your call. The new TT-50 costs $93 US. A pack of electrical ties costs less than $5.

Ken

Ken, Whats been your experience with the 2019 version of the TT-50? Has the chattering been eliminated or perhaps persisted but to a much lesser degree? Has the redesign eliminated the need for the zip ties as used by Wootz?
Title: Re: Truing Procedure
Post by: Ken S on January 14, 2020, 11:14:39 pm
George,

Looking at the two versions of the TT-50, the 2019 version looks like a genuine improvement. Over the years I have used the older version with and without the electrical ties. I have never experienced a problem either way. I do not doubt that others have experienced problems with the older design. To the best of my knowledge, the electrical ties solved the problem.

I have three older TT-50s and one 2019 version. I do not plan to replace any of the older versions, however, if I purchase any more in the future, I will stick with the newer version. I am not of any problems with the 2019 design.

Ken