Tormek Community

In the Shop => Scissors Sharpening => Topic started by: Sharpco on November 14, 2017, 10:17:27 am

Title: How do you finish scissors sharpening?
Post by: Sharpco on November 14, 2017, 10:17:27 am
I finish the scissors sharpening with 220 grit. Because the handbook on page 65 contains the following text.

"As a matter of fact, a coarser surface on the scissors makes them work better, as well as cut the slides less and cut more easily."

But I'm confused because there is a Honing wheel in 'Twice as Sharp' which is used by scissors sharpening experts.

I hope to hear your opinion.

Do you think that the coarser finish is better than fine finish?
Title: Re: How do you finish scissors sharpening?
Post by: cbwx34 on November 14, 2017, 02:20:20 pm
I finish the scissors sharpening with 220 grit. Because the handbook on page 65 contains the following text.

"As a matter of fact, a coarser surface on the scissors makes them work better, as well as cut the slides less and cut more easily."

But I'm confused because there is a Honing wheel in 'Twice as Sharp' which is used by scissors sharpening experts.

I hope to hear your opinion.

Do you think that the coarser finish is better than fine finish?

The quote you referenced is in the section which is titled "No honing".... and says not to use the honing wheel.  I don't think it's suggesting sharpening scissors with the stone graded 220g.  Most sharpening on the Tormek is done with the stone graded fine... 1000g (per the manual).  I also looked up the TAS "honing wheel"... it's 600g.

Also, make sure you're comparing "apples to apples"... for example there is a "polish wheel" on the high end TAS... but I don't think it's being used to polish the actual edge.
Title: Re: How do you finish scissors sharpening?
Post by: Sharpco on November 14, 2017, 02:41:41 pm
Thank you. cbwx34

Because of the word "coarser", I couldn't think of 1000 grit.

If I finish scissors sharpening with 220 grit, will the edge of the scissors dull quickly?
Title: Re: How do you finish scissors sharpening?
Post by: cbwx34 on November 14, 2017, 02:55:47 pm
Thank you. cbwx34

Because of the word "coarser", I couldn't think of 1000 grit.

If I finish scissors sharpening with 220 grit, will the edge of the scissors dull quickly?

I wouldn't do scissors at 220g.  Most scissors require very little work to make them sharp, and also, the more metal you remove, the greater chance they won't work at all... especially on scissors that you can't make adjustments on.  The 1000g finish will "catch and hold" material... which is what scissors require.
Title: Re: How do you finish scissors sharpening?
Post by: stevebot on November 14, 2017, 04:57:15 pm
Another opinion: Scissors require a bit more metal removal than knives, so I recommend grading to 220 to sharpen them. No further honing is needed. Remove the burr by closing the scissors without letting the edges touch, then hold them together as you open them. Burr will roll right up out of the contact or ride area and will actually become part of the cutting edge.

My wife commented one morning at market that it was taking me 10 min to sharpen scissors, compared to 2 min for knives. That inspired me to purchase a TAS scissor sharpener. The primary grinding wheel on all model TAS (except for salon shears) is 120 grit and I leave 90% of scissors with that. Only high end dressmaker shears get the honing wheel used, and then only on the finger blade. The thumb blade lft rough helps keep the fabric from pushing.

A final note - as you sharpen you are also creating a secondary burr on the back of the bevel. If you can feel it it can drag on fabric and should be smoothed with a fine hone.  See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKdFyozNgMA
Title: Re: How do you finish scissors sharpening?
Post by: cbwx34 on November 14, 2017, 05:35:47 pm
Another opinion: Scissors require a bit more metal removal than knives, so I recommend grading to 220 to sharpen them. No further honing is needed. Remove the burr by closing the scissors without letting the edges touch, then hold them together as you open them. Burr will roll right up out of the contact or ride area and will actually become part of the cutting edge.

My wife commented one morning at market that it was taking me 10 min to sharpen scissors, compared to 2 min for knives. That inspired me to purchase a TAS scissor sharpener. The primary grinding wheel on all model TAS (except for salon shears) is 120 grit and I leave 90% of scissors with that. Only high end dressmaker shears get the honing wheel used, and then only on the finger blade. The thumb blade lft rough helps keep the fabric from pushing.

A final note - as you sharpen you are also creating a secondary burr on the back of the bevel. If you can feel it it can drag on fabric and should be smoothed with a fine hone.  See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKdFyozNgMA

I'll never dispute your methods... but do you see a lot of damaged edges... or why did it take so long, and require the coarse stone?

My method (common household scissors) was mark with a Sharpie, match the angle, grind till the Sharpie was gone (fine stone), debur as you described, and done.  Most scissors took longer to clamp than to sharpen.  Haven't done a lot, so maybe I just go lucky.
Title: Re: How do you finish scissors sharpening?
Post by: stevebot on November 15, 2017, 03:48:08 am
I recall a lot of scissors with wide bevels, worn back into the blade, and having to remove enough metal to create a new edge, ie no reflection on the radius caused by wear.
And honestly I have not sharpened a pr of scissors on a Tormek for over a decade. TAS and Viel are much faster and easier.
Title: Re: How do you finish scissors sharpening?
Post by: Jan on November 15, 2017, 10:36:01 am
Steve is correct, it is not an easy and quick task to sharpen scissors in the Tormek jig. On the other hand, I am usually quite satisfied with the results achieved.  :)

The jig is well designed and its base is for me a very useful platform for many non-standard sharpening operations.
E.g. https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=3226.msg18879#msg18879

Jan
Title: Re: How do you finish scissors sharpening?
Post by: Sharpco on November 15, 2017, 11:03:25 am
I recall a lot of scissors with wide bevels, worn back into the blade, and having to remove enough metal to create a new edge, ie no reflection on the radius caused by wear.
And honestly I have not sharpened a pr of scissors on a Tormek for over a decade. TAS and Viel are much faster and easier.

I don't sharpen the scissors with Tormek too. Because of the low speed.
Title: Re: How do you finish scissors sharpening?
Post by: Ken S on November 16, 2017, 03:20:32 pm
Sharpco,

You bring up several interesting issues. I will tell you the reason I use my Tormek instead of  a Twice as Sharp for sharpening scissors. I have never sctually used a TAS, however, everything I know about it inficates that it it is a good unit. I have considered purchasing one. I have no doubt that I would like it. My reason for not purchasing one is cost. I am a hobby sharpener. I also sharpen on a volunteer basis for my grandchildren's school. The Tormek does a very adequate job for this. It may not do the job as quickly as a TAS, however, with my very low work volume, I am not pressed for time. Even if I was in business as a sharpener, I would have to consider very carefully if the number of scissors I needed to sharpen regularly would justify spending $400US compared with $50 for the scissors jig for the Tormek you already own.

The TAS is small enough that fitting it in your van would probably not be a problem. The dust might or might not be a problem for you. For occasional scissors, I would have a hard time in convincing myself that the $400 was cost effective. I leave it up to you to determine the volume level where it wiuld be cost effective for you.

As this is the Tormek forum, I do not want to get into a discussion about the Viel. I will say only that I thought the Viel would a useful adjunct for the Tormek for me. It has been that. The basic Viel costs around $100. I planned to use one of my three spare shop motors. That fid not work, so I purchased a motor. That brought my cost above $240. I decided to switch to a variable speed motor. The Viel has been a useful complement to my Tormek, a $400 complement. As a hobbiest, I like the tool. If I was running a cost effective business, I would have to think long and hard about such an investment.

Ken
Title: Re: How do you finish scissors sharpening?
Post by: Sharpco on November 16, 2017, 08:02:09 pm
Sharpco,

You bring up several interesting issues. I will tell you the reason I use my Tormek instead of  a Twice as Sharp for sharpening scissors. I have never sctually used a TAS, however, everything I know about it inficates that it it is a good unit. I have considered purchasing one. I have no doubt that I would like it. My reason for not purchasing one is cost. I am a hobby sharpener. I also sharpen on a volunteer basis for my grandchildren's school. The Tormek does a very adequate job for this. It may not do the job as quickly as a TAS, however, with my very low work volume, I am not pressed for time. Even if I was in business as a sharpener, I would have to consider very carefully if the number of scissors I needed to sharpen regularly would justify spending $400US compared with $50 for the scissors jig for the Tormek you already own.

The TAS is small enough that fitting it in your van would probably not be a problem. The dust might or might not be a problem for you. For occasional scissors, I would have a hard time in convincing myself that the $400 was cost effective. I leave it up to you to determine the volume level where it wiuld be cost effective for you.

As this is the Tormek forum, I do not want to get into a discussion about the Viel. I will say only that I thought the Viel would a useful adjunct for the Tormek for me. It has been that. The basic Viel costs around $100. I planned to use one of my three spare shop motors. That fid not work, so I purchased a motor. That brought my cost above $240. I decided to switch to a variable speed motor. The Viel has been a useful complement to my Tormek, a $400 complement. As a hobbiest, I like the tool. If I was running a cost effective business, I would have to think long and hard about such an investment.

Ken

Thank you. Ken.

I often have to sharpen dozens of scissors at once. However, scissors have less service costs than knives, so it is important to reduce the work time. So despite the advantages of Tormek that dust does not occur, I had to think of another machine.
Title: Re: How do you finish scissors sharpening?
Post by: Ken S on November 17, 2017, 01:57:27 am
Sharpco,

I did not realize that you often sharpen dozens of scissors at once. In that case, you need s tool designed specifically for scissors. The Tormek is a great general purpose tool.

Ken
Title: Re: How do you finish scissors sharpening?
Post by: Fernando on April 10, 2018, 10:37:54 pm
I totally agree with Ken about "The Tormek is a great general purpose tool."

In my case, I sharpen scissors gardening, tailor and stylist, and I can say that with the tormek and the standard stone I can sharpen the gardening and tailor getting excellent results, but the stylist still can not sharpen with my tormek , the edge that leaves the 1000 grain is not enough, besides that the amount of material that eliminates is greater, unless you get the sj-250, for now the stylist are the only ones that I finish with a mechanical machine of controlled angle, for the stylists I must reach a minimum of 4000 grain and even settle the edge with chrome oxide, I do not know anything about the work of a stylist in their day to day, but many tell me that it is enough to adjust a little more the scissors so that they get tired of the hand in a single day, we do not notice it because we have each scissor for a very short time, and it does not allow us to appreciate the consequences of one type of edge or another, but they know it, and that is what makes them choose to sharpen the scissors with you or someone else, in my case now that I have been sharpening scissors for a long time, I should not eliminate much material, maximum 1/3 of a millimeter and the edge should last a minimum of 4 months working daily.
hope in the future that this hoby gives me to buy the sj-250  :)
Title: Re: How do you finish scissors sharpening?
Post by: Serhij on October 25, 2018, 05:16:03 am
I heard that one of the methods sharpening scissors and to whet them with foil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqjFIwU_LUQ
Title: Re: How do you finish scissors sharpening?
Post by: Ken S on October 26, 2018, 01:38:44 pm
Fernando,

I do think the Tormek is a great general purpose sharpening tool. I also think that salon shears are a very specialized tool, and not in the "general purpose" catagory. As an expensive and vital part of a beautician's income, I think it is only fair to let those with specialized training and equipment work on them. I would certainly not discouraged you from getting the training and equipment to sharpen these.

Serhij,

Interesting idea. It might be a lifesaver when away from the shop.

Ken,
Title: Re: How do you finish scissors sharpening?
Post by: Darrell C on March 17, 2019, 10:47:34 pm
I heard that one of the methods sharpening scissors and to whet them with foil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqjFIwU_LUQ
Good grief, that has got to be a spoof, you want to build a burr  not grind the wall off the face. I had to laugh.
Title: Re: How do you finish scissors sharpening?
Post by: Serhij on July 12, 2019, 10:40:12 am
Scissors can go from simple to complex to just crazy.  Simple blades are the typical disposable ones and usually anything under $15.  It varies, but we get on average $7 to sharpen the average "dressmakers" shears.  Since we "service" technical shears (read that as high dollar beautician/stylist/barber shears/thinners etc), we charge as high as $20 on a 3 to 4 month basis.  That 3 or 4 months of cutting is approximately equivalent to a lifetime for household instruments.  So how long does a sharpening last.  It depends on what you are cutting, and the quality of the manufacture of both the shear AND the material the shear is made of.  Some shears are so technical, they vary the angle of the edge from the tip to the throat about 10 or more degrees.  But even dressmaker shears can be "technical". Some makers will use a different angle on each of the blades.  Some "technical" brands and models will succumb to the yo ho who sets his TAS (Twice as Sharp) to 45 degrees for EVERYTHING.  Most shears will cut that way, well maybe not as designed, but they will cut, kinda, maybe.

So, firstly, do not use a bench grinder running at 3450 rpm to ruin a good pair of shears.  I try never to use any vertical wheel grinder for shears, not even the Tormek, because even with the best sharpening job, they put a hollow grind on the blade.  The hollow grind doesn't last as long, but then again if you have a Tormek and the jig, you can always sharpen when needed. Secondly, you need a jig system to do a good job, there just isn't any way way to hold the exact angle necessary without years, maybe decades of experience (I've seen Japanese team members at the factory do it, I drink too much coffee for that routine).

On quality shears, the relationship of the ride and the line (or the whole blade if not inside hollow ground) must be established or often re-established.  It is not that this area is unimportant on inexpensive shears, its just that nobody seems to care except good sharpeners who are going to charge more than the shears cost to "service" them.  Also, you can't service them if you can't take them apart completely and subsequently put them back together again (not a reflection on someone trying to sharpen them, more a denigration of the company that is too cheap to use screws).

Of course the final element is testing.  First on rabbit fur (no, we're not having poor helpless bunnies skinned just to test scissors for sewing (https://sewingland.org/best-sewing-scissors/) and clippers, they are a by-product of the rabbit meat market, that we get from France), next we cut a double of Viva paper towels, in all cases they must cut all the way to the tip cleanly and not grab, especially at the tips.  Next comes the Kleenex, then a single ply of kleenex, then we wet a single ply and all of these must pass.  Then we try human hair extensions which must cut without pushing.  Kind of the final failure point.

A TAS or a Tormek will do the job, you just might have to sharpen more.  Good steel and good manufacture will go a long way to making a fairly long lasting shear for home use.  However, for something a seamstress or seamster or tailor will use every day repeatedly, 6 months to a year is more the norm.  For a cutter (I don't know if those folks still use hand shears anymore), I would imagine that 3 to 4 months would be about normal, maybe less.

I love those big shears the cutters use, don't see much of them anymore.

I spent 10 years sharpening and knifemaking, and just do it now to keep busy (retired).  Ask any questions about the business, I like the technical side.
Title: Re: How do you finish scissors sharpening?
Post by: Badassblades on July 23, 2019, 10:35:20 pm
I have sharpened more sissors for my wife than I could honestly count, I just finished 4 pair on my T8, I do all edges at 250 grit than 1000 she sews a ton and this method on my T8 works perfectly
Title: Re: How do you finish scissors sharpening?
Post by: RichColvin on July 24, 2019, 02:43:23 am
I have sharpened more sissors for my wife than I could honestly count, I just finished 4 pair on my T8, I do all edges at 250 grit than 1000 she sews a ton and this method on my T8 works perfectly

That is what I do also.