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In the Shop => Wood Turning => Topic started by: OneRogueWave on February 02, 2018, 06:25:57 am

Title: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
Post by: OneRogueWave on February 02, 2018, 06:25:57 am
  Hey there all, I shaped and sharpened some gouges on my T8. The rouging in was done on a borrowed belt sander attachment on a bench grinder, it used a odd set-up but had the SVD-180 clamp. That really helped out on set-up, grind on belt sander, go to stone and with multiple tools and with my SVD-185 in rotation, sped up the process. Has anyone successfully set up a BGM-100 on a belt sander? I run a Veil S-5, 1x42 and I just don't have the room for yet another machine, I'd rather make this work. I've already looked at the .pdf on the BGM, all the info is based on wheels, maybe use the TTS-100 and reverse engineer the geometry?

best regards, Kevin
Title: Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
Post by: Ken S on February 02, 2018, 12:35:34 pm
Welcome to the forum, Kevin.

Your idea should certainly work. I have a Viel S5. It's a nice, versatile machine. I have not used mine with the BGM-100, however, it seems just a matter of placing the BGM-100 so that the gouge edge aligns with the platen.

This must be a two part reply. I will go to my shop (just downstairs in the basement) after I return from driving my grandchildren to school. I will take a good look at my Viel and my (bought for future experimenting) BGM-100.

Incidentally, the two holes in the TTS-100 setting tool are just for setting the two Distances (between the universal support bar and the grinding wheel) on which Tormek bases its gouge settings. I will measure those two distances. You can make very simple one piece wooden gage blocks to set the Distance to your 1x42 belt. This will allow you to use the full program of of your SVD-185.

Of the top of my head (caveat: not tested) I think all the Tormek jigs should work with this setup.

I will get back to you later this morning.

Ken
Title: Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
Post by: RichColvin on February 02, 2018, 01:39:01 pm
Kevin,

I use the BGM-100 on my bench grinder, primarily for two purposes:

This works finely, but I use my Tormek grinder for sharpening as I have much greater control on steel removal, & I don’t like heating up the tool. 


For me, sharpening is something I want to be fast & effective.  I like to attach the jig, quickly sharpen, then get back to what I’m trying to do.  The Tormek grinder makes that happen, & I’ll bet you soon end up finding space for one.

Good luck with the BGM.  It is a great addition.

Rich
Title: Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
Post by: Ken S on February 02, 2018, 07:24:26 pm
Kevin,

This is looking promising. I looked at my Viel. I think the BGM-100 can be mounted on the Viel's grinding table. It will need to be mounted somewhat off center. Some clearance with the table would be good. It needs a flat piece between the table and the BGM-100. I happen to have baltic birch plywood in stock. That is where I would start, however, use what you have-wood or metal. Using the grinding table means that the BGM-100 is easily removable. a spare table is readily available from Viel or sparpeningmadeeasy.com.

Be sure to check your pm (private messages) tab later today.

Ken

Ken
Title: Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
Post by: OneRogueWave on February 02, 2018, 07:53:20 pm
  Thanks for the reply, I'll be looking at my inbox. I have a motor with a bad start capacitor so it's a manual start BUT I choose the direction it goes!
Title: Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
Post by: Ken S on February 02, 2018, 10:51:16 pm
I worked at the Hurricane Island Outward Bound School some forty years ago. We had a small work boat with a single cylinder engine. We called it a "one lunger". Reverse "gear" consisted in stopping the engine and giving the flywheel a spin in the opposite direction. While the bad starting capacitor is a nuisance, I would not give it much priority on the to do list.

If you ever decide to replace the motor, unless you have access to a free or nearly free used motor, I would switch to a variable speed motor. They cost around $130 new.

Ken

Title: Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
Post by: cbwx34 on February 03, 2018, 12:10:29 am
Type "Using Tormek jigs on a belt sander", and scroll thru the images... you might get some ideas. ;)
Title: Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
Post by: Ken S on February 03, 2018, 02:46:23 am
I had a chance to do some mock up up work. I am convinced it can be done, however, making the set up will require some thought and either wood or metal work. The Viel table must either be lowered and modified or the platen replaced with a taller one. A machine shop could do either of these.

A tall wooden under the BGM-100, placed in front of and to the right of the Viel should work. Changing belts can be clumsy with this arrangement.

Given your space constraint, would it be possible to fit a T4 in your shop space? It can be made to function as a dry grinder with the right wheel.

Ken
Title: Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
Post by: AKMike on February 03, 2018, 07:19:44 am
Here is one example of using the BGM-100 on a belt sander -

http://www.shopsmith.com/ss_forum/general-woodworking-f5/new-project-t20894.html (http://www.shopsmith.com/ss_forum/general-woodworking-f5/new-project-t20894.html)

Mike
Title: Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
Post by: Ken S on February 03, 2018, 11:53:11 am
I think you will find the Viel more "user friendly" if you use it in the horizontal position. The standard vertical position places the tool being ground at a clumsy position. Just tip the Viel over. Steve Bottorff has done an excellent video demonstrating this. Do a search for Steve Bottorff you tube channel.

You will need to make a column to hold the BGM-100. I suggest just using the flat platform with the two sleeves and screwing it directly to a wooden column.

I suggest making a plywood base to keep the Viel and column aligned. Right angle brackets will keep the column supported and aligned. Wootz makes some very nice columns designed for using the BGM with paper wheels. He has photos showing them on his website (knifegrinders.com.au). One of these would work very nicely, but is probably overkill for your needs.

If you can make the whole thing yourself out of wood or metal, the project should be cost effective. Do not forget to factor in belt changing (actually do it during mock up). Your one lunger bidirectional motor is an advantage here. For those with motors with working starter mechanisms, I recommend installing a reversing switch.

If you think you might be interested in pursuing this path, I can post a photo.

Ken
Title: Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
Post by: GKC on October 12, 2018, 03:21:27 am
This thread began some time ago, so Kevin has probably moved on, but in case anyone else is curious about the Tormek jigs on a belt grinder, especially the Viel S5 (1x42") model, here is my experience. 

My entry to Tormek was with the BGM-100 and several Tormek jigs, all mounted in front of a Viel.  (I have three Viels, one I have equipped with a variable speed reversing motor, and that is the one I used for the Tormek application).   I did it just as Ken envisioned, with the BGM-100 mounted on a stout wooden block just in front of and to the right of the belt.  I was chasing a dream: the Tormek jigs with my existing flat bevel grinding and sharpening equipment.

It is because I never found a way to make this satisfactory that I recently went whole-hog and got the T-8.  I still have the Viel / BGM-100 set up in place, but the T-8 is so much better in every respect (except for speed in some applications) that I am not using the Viel / BGM-100 setup much anymore. 

One important limitation I found with the Tormek jigs on the Viel is that the Tormek jigs are designed to take advantage of the clearance that is created by the curvature of the wheel.  With the knife jigs, for example, I found it very difficult to get anything better than a 20 degree bevel (for a 40 degree edge) on the flat surface.  Anything more acute and the jig hit the belt, whereas it clears the wheel on the Tormek because the wheel falls away underneath the contact point.  The scissors jig is better but you find yourself bumping into things on the Viel/BGM setup that just aren't there to be in the way on the Tormek machine.  An exception is turning tools in e.g. the SVD-186, where there is a lot of projection out of the jig so that the jig can be far back from the belt  (but a 1" belt is narrow for that task).

I have had my Viels for over 20 years and love their simplicity and versatility--I hope to use them for 20 more.  But I couldn't find a good fit with the Tormek jigs, and think that it is worth saving to get one of the Tormek machines rather than wrestling as I did with something like a Viel / Tormek combination.

Gord

Title: Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
Post by: Ken S on October 12, 2018, 01:20:00 pm
Very informative post, Gord.

I probably use my Viel as much as a Tormek, but for different things.

Ken
Title: Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
Post by: OneRogueWave on July 22, 2019, 03:43:13 am
au contraire Gord, I've not given up yet on trying to use the Viel S-5 IF it's practical but asking the group did solicit great responses as yours was very enlightening. I do find some grinding operations on the Tormek tedious and inefficient but like a swiss army knife the tormek does alot, just not all great. I did burn my BGM-100 idea on a felt/paper wheel machine ala Wootz and his great research. Sorry all for the late reply but as with life, I've been buried and some things fall to the back....way back burner.
Title: Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
Post by: RickKrung on July 23, 2019, 07:11:21 am
This thread began some time ago, so Kevin has probably moved on, but in case anyone else is curious about the Tormek jigs on a belt grinder, especially the Viel S5 (1x42") model, here is my experience. 

My entry to Tormek was with the BGM-100 and several Tormek jigs, all mounted in front of a Viel.  (I have three Viels, one I have equipped with a variable speed reversing motor, and that is the one I used for the Tormek application).   I did it just as Ken envisioned, with the BGM-100 mounted on a stout wooden block just in front of and to the right of the belt.  I was chasing a dream: the Tormek jigs with my existing flat bevel grinding and sharpening equipment.

It is because I never found a way to make this satisfactory that I recently went whole-hog and got the T-8.  I still have the Viel / BGM-100 set up in place, but the T-8 is so much better in every respect (except for speed in some applications) that I am not using the Viel / BGM-100 setup much anymore. 

One important limitation I found with the Tormek jigs on the Viel is that the Tormek jigs are designed to take advantage of the clearance that is created by the curvature of the wheel.  With the knife jigs, for example, I found it very difficult to get anything better than a 20 degree bevel (for a 40 degree edge) on the flat surface.  Anything more acute and the jig hit the belt, whereas it clears the wheel on the Tormek because the wheel falls away underneath the contact point.  The scissors jig is better but you find yourself bumping into things on the Viel/BGM setup that just aren't there to be in the way on the Tormek machine.  An exception is turning tools in e.g. the SVD-186, where there is a lot of projection out of the jig so that the jig can be far back from the belt  (but a 1" belt is narrow for that task).

I have had my Viels for over 20 years and love their simplicity and versatility--I hope to use them for 20 more.  But I couldn't find a good fit with the Tormek jigs, and think that it is worth saving to get one of the Tormek machines rather than wrestling as I did with something like a Viel / Tormek combination.

Gord

I am working on trying to resolve the conflicts/interference of the Viel frame with getting the Tormek knife jigs in closer for the more acute angles, as Gord points out is difficult (read as "not possible").  I started out trying it with the Viel upright in the normal position, which is where I discovered the problem.
https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=3705.msg27703#msg27703

I then went to trying it with the Viel on its back or front, to try to get the jigs out in front of the top (passive) pulley and using the BGM (and FVB).  I'm still working on that, but have found that the USB is also part of the problem.  With the USB in a vertical position, the vertical uprights interfere with the collar.  With the USB uprights in a horizontal position, the uprights interfere with the jig body.  This occurs whether the Viel is in its normal/nominal upright position or on its back or face with the passive pulley out front and whether the Viel frame is flat or tilted. 

I think the solution is to have the USB/uprights at an angle, but I'm not sure yet what angles might work, given the length of the USB uprights.  It may be necessary to cut off some of the uprights to provide the clearance from the table.  I am wondering if it might be necessary to bend the uprights, so the BGM/FVB can be either/both vertical and/or horizontal.  I have just this evening returned from a week road trip to a bamboo fly rod makers gathering and all my stuff is still loaded in my car, so I am unable tonight to offer any images. 

I would prefer to have the Viel in its nominal upright position, so am considering cutting away at the top front corner of the Viel frame (in the area where the stock platform/jigs mount).  I do not anticipate using any of the Viel jigs but also, cutting away enough so the Tormek jigs clear will not preclude use of that slot for mounting Viel jigs/platform. 

Now that I am home again, I hope to work on this some this week.  But, my daughter and granddaughter are moving to their own place in a couple weeks and I do not know yet how much of my time may be consumed with preparations. 

Rick
Title: Viel Tilted with BGM/FVB/USB
Post by: RickKrung on July 24, 2019, 06:32:52 am
I think I've figure it out...  for now...  ;)  This is going with the Viel tilted on its back and with the motor reversed.

All of this is still just in the design stage, all still just CAD drawings.  But that is how I start most projects and it really helps work out a lot of issues before trying to build anything.  My buddy scoffs at this approach and he just goes into his shop and starts making stuff.  He re-makes a lot along the way. 

So, started with a base, with some blocks for tilting the Viel frame and this image shows the block on which the BGM will be mounted.
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3506)

Next shows the frame positioned on the tilting blocks.  Frame is tilted at 12º, which is the most acute angle I can get due to the Tormek jig contacting the belt at anything more acute. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3516)

Here we have the entire Viel sander assembly, in the tilted position. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3510)

Base board with the BGM/FVB/USB.  The sander is omitted for clarity. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3512)

The entire assembly, sans knife jigs.
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3514)

Due to the limit on number of attachments, this will be continued in another post, showing the knife jigs on the USB/sander. 

Rick
Title: Tormek Knife Jigs on Tilted Viel Sander
Post by: RickKrung on July 24, 2019, 06:46:53 am
This series shows the Tormek SVM-45 knife jig in four angle positions on the tilted Viel with the BGM/FVB/USB used for support. 

12º
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3518)

14º
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3520)

16º
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3540)

18º
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3524)

This method can be used for angles as acute as 12º.  I had thought that the vertical uprights would interfere with the jig collar, but with trial and error I figured out how to avoid that.  The uprights would interfere with the collar at any angle more acute, but as stated above, so would the lower jaw of the jig.  The width adjustment screw also contacted the belt at the 12º setting but I figure I'll have to shorten those screws, maybe by no other means than just using it and letting the belt as much stock removal as is necessary. 

The final image shows the distances from the top of an XB-100 Horizontal Base to the top of the USB for each angle setting.
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3526)

This approach simplifies the setting of the USB height to just a measurement of the distance between the XB-100 and the top of the USB, similar to how one does it on the vertical USB on the Tormek machines, presumably if using an applet for calculating the distances.  I don't think an applet is necessary.  If nothing else, using one of those electronic angle gauges (angle cubes) to measure the angle directly off of the jig/blade could be done.  The best way would be to use a surrogate blade that has no other bevel other than at the apex would give the best/right angle. 

Anyone attempting this build will likely have to figure out what those USB height distances are, given their particular build.  I'll report back on how actually building and using this design works.  I plan on using this from a sitting position.  My objective was to put the Viel at an angle that allows the operator to easily see the blade contacting the belt while in that sitting position.

If the uprights interfere with jig collar, I think lowering the angle of the Viel frame may alleviate the conflict.  That would, of course, change the USB heights. 

Rick
Title: Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
Post by: Ken S on July 24, 2019, 09:32:33 am
Very clever, Rick.

Your set up reminds me of "the ancestor kenjig", originally used to set chisels and plane irons using the TTS-100. (This was long before I started sharpening knives.) I set the Distance between the grinding wheel and support bar using the holes in the TTS-100 first. Using the Anglemaster, I then set the Projection. When I had the bevel angle right, I made a Sharpie mark on a label tape on the TTS-100 slot. This was somewhat clumsy, however, I only had to do it one time. By the time I started sharpening knives, Dutchman had posted his grinding tables.

I think the kenjig could be easily modified to work with your Viel set up.

Ken
Title: Alternative BGM Setups
Post by: RickKrung on July 24, 2019, 04:28:44 pm
Here are some alternative designs for mounting the USB/BGM without the use of an FVB. These may be of interest to those who do not have an FVB to include. 

The first uses a wooden block to mount a single XB-100 Horizontal Base on a taller wooden block.  This keeps the USB in the same place as the one I posted above, and the USB Height Distances are the same.  The advantage, of course is not needed another device.  The disadvantage is that there is less flexibility in positioning the USB for other jigs and operations.  I have no idea at this time whether that matters. 

The wooden block:
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3528)

XB-100 and USB at 12º:
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3530)

This one also uses a taller wooden block that eliminates the FVB, but at an angle.  It provides the best clearance for the jigs from the USB uprights.  It does NOT preserve the USB heights from above and in fact, changes things quite a bit because it causes the contact location of the blade apex along the belt/platen to change.  As the USB is extended for higher angles, that contact point is lower on the platen.  I have not worked the USB positions for the other angles.  This approach may also allow for shallower angles than 12º but would mean material would have to come off of the bottom jig jaw and the adjusting screw.  It may be useful for free-handing and/or with a platform like Herman's I posted previously a platform made for the Viel (https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=3705.msg27724#msg27724). 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3532)

Rick
Title: Vertical/Upright Viel USB Setup
Post by: RickKrung on July 28, 2019, 05:53:08 am
I've really been thrashing about over the past couple of weeks, trying to get this Viel belt sander outfitted with a Tormek USB so I can use the Tormek knife jigs for sharpening.  I made a platform for more general uses, but I want to be able to use the sander to rough things in and then move to the Tormek for the actual sharpening. 

I posted above about turning the sander around and tipping it over so the passive pulley is nearest and mount the sander and USB support on a plywood base board.  Several reasons why I didn't really care for that set up, one being it takes up too much space and I am not convinced the sander will be useful for other, non-sharpening tasks where I want the sander in the nominal upright position. 

So, I set out again and changed things completely.  I also wanted the USB support to be on the left side of the sander frame, leaving the right side completely clear for belt changes. Here is a CAD drawing looking at what I came up with from the right side. The jig shown is set at 12º.  Note the space between the USB and the belt.  More room to move it closer if needed.  Part of my objective was to keep the XB-100 and its wooden support completely behind the belt/platen so there would be no chance of those items interfering with access to the belt. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3544)

I've mounted a wooden block to the frame on the left side and mounted an XB-100 Horizontal Base.  I had to drill and tap one hole in the Viel frame to mount this wooden block and I put a bevel on the front side for clearance. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3546)

(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3548)

I aligned the USB with the front of the platen by clamping the USB in the XB-100 and forcing the USB against the front of the platen.  Then transfer punched the hole locations, followed by clearance drilling for the mounting screws.
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3550)

I didn't get one hole deep enough and it split out.  I've glued it but I am going to wait until tomorrow to remount the XB-100 and continue with testing how it works. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3552)

(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3554)

This setup changes the relationship between the USB and the belt/platen from the previous configuration, so here is a USB setting template with dimensions.  The template is for angles of 12, 14, 16 and 18º only.  I'll use the digital angle cube for other angles. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3556)

This setup can be moved in closer for almost 10º, but the collar, either the stock collar or the Pin Pivot Collar interferes with the frame when in close to 10º.  I have never sharpened anything at less than 12º, so I am not very concerned about it. 

Tomorrow I'll finish the setup and try out grinding some junker knives on the Viel and then take them to the Tormek to see how it performs.  I am feeling pretty good about his one.  The sander is easily moved and does not take up much room, both good things. 

One of the things I really like about this one is that it uses only a single horizontal base and one USB, freeing my FVB for use on the Tormek where it serves a much better use.  I did not want to be switching the FVB between machines, as that would kill most of the time advantage of having the sander for roughing.  With this configuration, I do not have to mess with reversing the motor and/or installing the reversing switch.  That is a trivial matter, I just don't want to have to dig for the switch right now (box it is in, is in storage). 

Rick
Title: Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
Post by: Jan on July 28, 2019, 09:57:56 am
Rick, thank you for your progress report, appreciated!
IMHO the 12⁰ bevel angle will be possible only for wider blades where the protruding part of the blade is at least 20-21 mm. For narrower blades the lower clamp of the jig will probably touch the belt. Please let me know.

Jan
Title: Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
Post by: RickKrung on July 28, 2019, 06:13:26 pm
Rick, thank you for your progress report, appreciated!
IMHO the 12⁰ bevel angle will be possible only for wider blades where the protruding part of the blade is at least 20-21 mm. For narrower blades the lower clamp of the jig will probably touch the belt. Please let me know.

Jan

I think you are correct.  That will be a limitation.  Good catch.  There is always something. 

The setup where the sander is turned around and tilted with the jig fixturing is out in front of (clear of) the passive pulley would solve that.  It will be interesting to see if the wider angles will do much better on those narrow blades.  May be a reason to use the small knife jig, although, the problem will likely exist for long skinny blades, such as filet knives. 

Another option would be to use the sander to remove some of the thickness of the jig bottom jaw until it clears for those narrow blades.  There isn't a lot of pressure involved. If it doesn't take that much off, I think there would still be enough meat there.

Another option that I have considered is to rough such a blade in at a higher/wider angle, to do the heavy material removal and then clean it up on the Tormek.  It would mean using the Tormek for taking material off of the blade at the wide part of the bevel until the apex is reached and a bevel at the desired more acute angle is established.  That would not be as fast as doing all the roughing at the target angle on the sander, but I think it would work. 

Rick

Rick
Title: Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
Post by: Jan on July 28, 2019, 09:17:00 pm
Yes Rick, I know the limitation from my past experiments when I was positioning the USB versus my hand bet sander. Nevertheless the conclusion was/is encouraging. When the diameter of the passive pulley is smaller than the diameter of the Tormek wheel than it is possible to position the USB so, that the knife jig clearance is slightly better for the belt sander than for Tormek. 

Jan
Title: Thrashing About Continues
Post by: RickKrung on July 29, 2019, 07:04:44 pm
The thrashing about continues, although the oscillations are getting smaller, maybe. 

I was satisfied with the USB configuration with the sander in the vertical position (and in the tilted, but I prefer the former), as above.  But..., then I tired including the adjusting screw and locking knob.  Both contact the belt in both orientations. 

Vertical mount, adjusting screw contact:
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3560)

Vertical mount, locking screw contact:
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3562)

Tilted mount, adjusting screw contact:'
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3564)

Tilted mount, locking screw contact:
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3566)

There is no solution for the locking knob contact with the vertical position of the sander.  I could solve the interference problems for both by using a 6mm set screw in place of the locking knob.  Contact with the adjusting screw will happen only with the more acute angle, 12º at least, but can be dealt with by grinding a bit off the to of the screw head.  Or the adjusting screw could be replaced by a wide headed socket screw, such as a pan head with the underside contoured to match the curvature of the upper jaw pocket. 

The solution for the tilted mount is to move the entire assembly further down the belt toward the passive pulley.  This would avoid having to use set screws in place of the locking knob, but it puts the sander in the tilted position, which is what takes up so much bench space.  Decisions....
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3583)

There is a very high likelihood I will try the set screws first with the vertical position, since that is the orientation I prefer and it is set up now.  Using set screws means having to handle a tool as part of the jig set up process, which could be a pain, at least until I become accustomed to it.  We'll see.  I have already been questioning the wisdom of trying to adapt the Viel for use with the Tormek knife jigs.  I am sure it will be a useful addition to my shop, but how many are going to bother the the amount of hassle it is to set up as I have been trying. 

Rick
Title: Viel Tilted and Rotated Complete (for now)
Post by: RickKrung on August 01, 2019, 07:07:56 pm
The build is complete, at least for now.  We'll see what, if any adjustments are necessary or desired. 

Viel turned around and tilted on its back, set up so the USB/knife jigs are out in front of the top/passive pulley, with the point of contact along the platen close to the pulley.  I have not installed the reversing switch yet, but I have reversed the leads inside the control box so the belt travels away from the knife (edge-trailing) in this position. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3585)

(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3587)

I built it so the whole assembly could be tilted up so the sander rests on its factory feet and can be used in the upright/frontal orientation.  In this position, the belt is traveling downward, so is not usable for sharpening so much, but more like the traditional 1x30" benchtop belt sander.  I have one and am considering retrofitting it with the same variable speed motor. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3589)

As could be expected, there is always something.  The MicroAdjust (MA) nut, if screwed all the way up on the USB upright interferes with the stock adjustable collar.  I have two MAs on each USB, on at the top and one down on the Horizontal Base (HB) (or T8 case) as an aid to keeping the calipers parallel (https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=2962.msg25025#msg25025) with the upright when setting heights using one of the angle calculating apps. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3591)

With the USB so close to the HB, it may be more difficult to keep parallel, if using calipers.  I am thinking it would be faster and more definitive to make some spacers to use between the bottom of the USB bar and the top of the HB, eliminating the use of calipers for standard angles, such as 12, 14, 16 and 18º and permitting not having the MA not right up there at the top. 

Rick
Title: Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
Post by: RickKrung on August 04, 2019, 11:16:33 pm
I've been working on the electronics/control box to add a motor direction reversing switch.  It has been a pain finding the right switch.  I'd really prefer a rocker switch, but the best I've been able to find in any store locally is a toggle switch.  I'm going with that until I find the right rocker switch. 

Image of the insides of the control box.  Reversing switch is going to go into the lower left corner.  The speed pot has a locating tab.  I wanted to rotate it 180º to get the leads on the bottom, so I had to drill a new locating tab hole into the case.  That speed pot is just loose in there in this photo.
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3593)

Reversing switch installed. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3595)

External view of the installed reversing switch.  Ken took his to a motor shop to have the switch put in.  They located it on the bottom of the case where the power cords come and go and where the reset button is.  I wanted my reversing switch to be distinguishable from the On/Off switch but to be near it and the speed pot on the top of the case.  The only place for it was on the side, but that is near enough. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3597)

The reversing switch isn't wired yet, as I have not located my box of electronics parts since my move and the local hardware stores do not have what I need. 

Rick
Title: Reversing Switch Installed
Post by: RickKrung on August 10, 2019, 06:50:12 am
I didn't like the toggle switch that I had installed, so changed it out for a "mini" rocker switch.  I also repositioned it next to the main power switch.  The rocker switch is low profile enough, I believe I will not have any trouble flipping it rather than the power switch, but that remains to be seen. 

Cutting the hole.  I kind of butchered one sides, but it is mostly hidden once the switch is in.
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3645)

Wiring is kind of tight.  I added shrink wrap insulation over the exposed metal quick disconnect fittings. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3647)

Buttoned up and ready to run. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3649)

Rick
Title: Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
Post by: Ken S on August 10, 2019, 05:49:09 pm
Rick,

I like your switch set up. I designed my Viel set up to mount the control box on the wooden box I built to help carry the unit.The switches are all fairly well protected.

Your design definitely makes the reversing switch more convenient.

Ken

PS I like your longer platen. It seems "just the ticket" for correcting the curve of chef's knives!
Title: Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
Post by: RickKrung on August 10, 2019, 05:59:07 pm
Rick,

I like your switch set up. I designed my Viel set up to mount the control box on the wooden box I built to help carry the unit.The switches are all fairly well protected.

Your design definitely makes the reversing switch more convenient.

Ken

And I believe it is also well protected, whether the control box is mounted or not.  I am not sure yet what I will do with the control box.  I do not like it loose.  It is vulnerable, but more important, awkward to turn on and off. 

I want to mount it.  The obvious place is on the plywood base board.  But that leaves it vulnerable to the grinding grit/dust which cannot be good.  If I deal with collecting that grit/dust using a vacuum setup, I may feel comfortable mounting it on the base board.

But, therein lies a design consideration that "Grepper" pointed out (on the Bessex forum), which is to not use the same dust collection system for the sander, which can generate sparks, that is used for wood dust collection. ... Exactly what I was planning on doing.  He uses a counter-current 5 gal. bucket to collect the grinder dust.  I think he even uses a separate vacuum for it, rather than the one he uses for wood dust. 

Still pondering what to do on that.

Rick
Title: Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
Post by: Ken S on August 11, 2019, 06:58:51 pm
Rick,

This is how I have my controller mounted. I have a plywood lid. The lid could be lengthened to coner the controller. Maxtheknife uses the magnetic copy paper (to make refrigerator magnets) to catch most of the steel particles.

A Swedish company makes the best dustless product.It uses a water bath.

(http://)

Ken
Title: Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
Post by: RickKrung on August 11, 2019, 07:05:03 pm
Thanks.  I am still pondering how and whether I should try to enclose the motor/controller, as well as dust collection.  I wonder how well the magnets really work, given that some of the "dust" is abrasive grit as well as the metal particles.  Also, since many of the knives we sharpen are stainless, which in its various forms, many are not or very weakly magnetic.  I think a vacuum system with a hood or shroud is where I will go with it.  I hope that will reduce motivation to enclose things, my only real concern being dirt getting into the controller through the ventilation slots. 

Rick
Title: Three Tiny Pots Speed Controls
Post by: RickKrung on August 18, 2019, 09:15:14 am
The PSI motor controller is variable speed using a potentiometer (pot).  Steve Bottorff says the Viel with the PSI motor and smaller drive pulley runs at 1700 rpm.  I don't know the speed at the lower end, but it is not slow enough for me.  It happens that there are three tiny "pots" in the inside of the controller, on the circuit board, that control the top and lower end speeds.  This first photo shows where they are on the circuit board.
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3675)

The second photo shows a close-up of the three pots, with letter labels, "L", "H" and "F".  I called PSI technical support and after being told my warranty was "blown up" due to having modified the controller by installing a reversing switch, then I was told what the three pots do.
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3515.0;attach=3677)

L = Low end speed
H = High end speed
F = Frequency (I was told NOT to touch this one). 

I adjusted the low end pot when the motor was running in reverse, to as slow as it would run without faultering.  Switched it to forward and it hardly ran, faultering a lot.  So, I don't know why but it runs at quite different speeds on the lower end of the low end, depending on direction.  It works to just turn the main speed control knob up when switching to reverse.  I don't know how much this will matter, as I don't know what I'll try to do with it running in forward.  I also don't know how slow I need or want it in reverse, for sharpening knives.  I do know that it does go slow enough for anything I might want.

Rick
Title: Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
Post by: Ken S on August 18, 2019, 04:36:37 pm
Rick,
It has been quite a while since I checked my motor speeds. As I recall, I adjusted the slow speed (with the pot) to around 900 RPM. This makes a noticeable difference. I usually use the speed control knob around half.
As you have noted, just switching to the smaller drive pulley cuts the speed from 2700 RPM to 1800 RPM.

Ken
Title: Speed Controls
Post by: RickKrung on August 18, 2019, 07:02:54 pm
Rick,
It has been quite a while since I checked my motor speeds. As I recall, I adjusted the slow speed (with the pot) to around 900 RPM. This makes a noticeable difference. I usually use the speed control knob around half.
As you have noted, just switching to the smaller drive pulley cuts the speed from 2700 RPM to 1800 RPM.

Ken

Ken,

I find that a little curious.  When you say "with the pot", which one are your referring to? 

Are you saying that you use the primary (external) speed control set at around half and that you used the tiny internal "low" speed pot to adjust the lower end speed to around 900 rpm?  This seems incongruous. 

SteveB lists the top end at 1700 rpm.  Speed control set to about half should then be around 850 rpm, but that is hard to know as we don't know the wave form of the speed control pot (linear or tapered).  When setting up VFDs on my Rivett 1020, 6x26 vertical mill and a large Bridgeport vertical mill (not mine), I found the pots often had a very rapid speed increase near the bottom and a fairly slow speed increase over the upper range of pot rotation.  Frustrating. 

Do you mean to say that you adjusted the low end "tiny" pot in some way.  If so, how and what effect it has on the low end speed, on your machine, is unclear to me. 

I adjusted the low end pot to where the pulley turns very slowly, which on the order of 60-100 rpm.  Of course, if I want it faster during use, the primary speed control knob would be used. 

Rick