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In the Shop => General Tormek Questions => Topic started by: Sharpco on May 04, 2018, 02:28:57 pm

Title: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: Sharpco on May 04, 2018, 02:28:57 pm
After truing the SJ stone, some holes are created on the surface. I didn't solve this problem even though doing it very slowly and the depth was as thin as possible. I did it very slowly and set the truing depth as shallow as possible to solve this problem, but it was not effective.
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: jeffs55 on May 04, 2018, 03:20:07 pm
They must be inclusions in the stone unrelated to your truing efforts. I would say they are harmless.
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: Grizz on May 04, 2018, 09:52:48 pm
After truing the SJ stone, some holes are created on the surface. I didn't solve this problem even though doing it very slowly and the depth was as thin as possible. I did it very slowly and set the truing depth as shallow as possible to solve this problem, but it was not effective.
I have a SJ and I've never seen that before. the only thing that comes to mind is ensure the truing jig is in the slot and tight, secondly, check the diamond stone on the tt-50 and make sure its tight. holler for help at Tormek !
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: cbwx34 on May 05, 2018, 01:00:28 am
After truing the SJ stone, some holes are created on the surface. I didn't solve this problem even though doing it very slowly and the depth was as thin as possible. I did it very slowly and set the truing depth as shallow as possible to solve this problem, but it was not effective.

I don't think truing itself is "causing" it, (wouldn't it create gouges?)... maybe where little "air pockets" were in the stone?  (Is that what an "inclusion" that jeffs55 wrote is?)

Probably no big deal, unless the tip of a knife (or other blade) could get caught in one...  :o

What is the diameter of your stone at this point?

I'm guessing another question for Tormek support.  (If you do, let us know what they tell you).
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: Grizz on May 05, 2018, 01:46:15 am
After truing the SJ stone, some holes are created on the surface. I didn't solve this problem even though doing it very slowly and the depth was as thin as possible. I did it very slowly and set the truing depth as shallow as possible to solve this problem, but it was not effective.

I don't think truing itself is "causing" it, (wouldn't it create gouges?)... maybe where little "air pockets" were in the stone?  (Is that what an "inclusion" that jeffs55 wrote is?)

Probably no big deal, unless the tip of a knife (or other blade) could get caught in one...  :o

What is the diameter of your stone at this point?

I'm guessing another question for Tormek support.  (If you do, let us know what they tell you).
I think jeff is correct saying they are probably harmless. also they may very well be air pockets and should disappear after a few truing sessions. still I would ask for guidance from Tormek as safety could be a concern.
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: jeffs55 on May 05, 2018, 04:32:46 am
To all concerned, an "inclusion" in anything whether man made or naturally occurring is something that is created when the matter itself was created. Hence, inclusion. Diamonds have "inclusions" that are known as defects or flaws. In this case the Tormek stone was cast with air pockets that created voids. Since an edge is drawn across the stone and not held stationary to it, the void is mitigated by the rest of the intact stone. In other words, don't sweat it.
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: Sharpco on May 05, 2018, 05:25:11 am
What is the diameter of your stone at this point?

My SJ stone's diameter is 235mm. I have never seen these holes before.(If my memory is correct.)
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: Ken S on May 05, 2018, 09:25:03 am
Whenever you encounter a Tormek product which does not meet your satisfaction, you should contact support (support.tormek.se) and request a new replacement. Support acts on these requests. In the past, we have seen examples where local distributors do not act as quickly. I would let the local distributor learn of the problem from Sweden with instructions to correct it.

Please post your results. Tormek deserves compliments for excellent service, and, should the service not be excellent, it should also be posted. Contact support. Let Tormek correct the problem.

Ken
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: cbwx34 on May 05, 2018, 03:15:31 pm
To all concerned, an "inclusion" in anything whether man made or naturally occurring is something that is created when the matter itself was created. Hence, inclusion. Diamonds have "inclusions" that are known as defects or flaws. In this case the Tormek stone was cast with air pockets that created voids. Since an edge is drawn across the stone and not held stationary to it, the void is mitigated by the rest of the intact stone. In other words, don't sweat it.

Thanks.  (I actually looked up "inclusion", but couldn't tell if it included "air pockets"). ;)

My SJ stone's diameter is 235mm. I have never seen these holes before.(If my memory is correct.)

Thanks.  Maybe no surprise there would be "air bubbles" further down in the mix?  It would be interesting to know how these stones are made...  ???

I think jeffs55 hit upon a point... whether or not it matters in actual use.
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: Ken S on May 05, 2018, 04:26:02 pm
I agree with Jeff that the holes may not actually effect the functioning of the SJ. However, you did not purchase an inexpensive hardware store grinding wheel or a factory second. You purchased Tormek's most expensive grinding wheel. Unless it came with a notice to expect minor flaws, you should receive a new grinding wheel at no charge in my opinion.

What has support said to you?

My Tormek Work Station was damaged in shipping due to inadequate packing and/or rough handling. I made the mistake of not refusing it. It is fully functional. I hammered out most of the dent. If it had been a yard sale bargain or a factory second, it would have been fine. Being a new unit, the damage has left a bad taste in my mouth. As a Tormek customer, you should not have that bad taste memory. If you have not already contacted support, do so and get this resolved.

Ken
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: cbwx34 on May 05, 2018, 09:20:22 pm
Just out of curiosity... did you try grading the stone ‘fine’ after truing?

Wondering if that would clean it up?
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: Sharpco on May 06, 2018, 06:33:42 am
Just out of curiosity... did you try grading the stone ‘fine’ after truing?

Wondering if that would clean it up?

https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=3416.msg21905#msg21905

I have two Stone Grader, one is which is curved and the other is relatively flat.

But I can't be satisfied with even relatively flat stones.

So I using a diamond plate and a rust erazer for cleaning SJ stone.

And even with them, the air pockets didn't disappear.
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: cbwx34 on May 06, 2018, 03:05:20 pm
Just out of curiosity... did you try grading the stone ‘fine’ after truing?

Wondering if that would clean it up?

https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=3416.msg21905#msg21905

I have two Stone Grader, one is which is curved and the other is relatively flat.

But I can't be satisfied with even relatively flat stones.

So I using a diamond plate and a rust erazer for cleaning SJ stone.

And even with them, the air pockets didn't disappear.

Ok.  Just wondered.

I was looking again at your picture... and noticed little dark spots on the stone (not the holes).  It reminded me... a few years back Shapton had a high grit stone that had "spots"... it turned out to be little clumps of binder.  Made me wonder if that's what is going on here... and maybe the Truing Tool is aggressive enough that, no matter how shallow, it might dislodge this creating the holes.  (Which is why they don't show up just grading or cleaning the wheel... that would just keep them smoothed out).

(Of course that doesn't solve the problem you have now).  :o
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: Sharpco on June 13, 2018, 12:19:08 pm
I received an answer from Tormek.

----------------------------------

Yes it is normal.

Our SJ-250 and SJ-200 have a complicated manufacturing process. Unfortunately micro bubbles is something that comes from that process.

Normally it appears when the stone diameter gets smaller.

This is  normal and do not affect the results and performance of the stone.
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: RickKrung on June 14, 2018, 08:04:04 pm
How many who have an SJ wheel have trued it? 

I have one and use it as the final treatment before stropping on leather for all my knives now.  But I have never trued it.  I use a Nagura stone to clean it, which it needs frequently, I think more due to the black marker that I use for checking angles than due to use.  It is at 249mm.  It just feels like the truing stone is too coarse to use on it. 

Rick
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: Ken S on June 14, 2018, 08:56:58 pm
I have trued mine once, maybe twice, using the TT-50. I have not observed any problems. Of course, I have a VERY light touch with the truing tool.

I bought a Nagura stone on a forum recommendation (sorry, I don't remember whose recommendation). I have not used the SJ much and certainly do not consider myself either expert or experienced with it.

Ken
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: Grizz on June 14, 2018, 10:01:18 pm
How many who have an SJ wheel have trued it? 

I have one and use it as the final treatment before stropping on leather for all my knives now.  But I have never trued it.  I use a Nagura stone to clean it, which it needs frequently, I think more due to the black marker that I use for checking angles than due to use.  It is at 249mm.  It just feels like the truing stone is too coarse to use on it. 

Rick
My SJ-250 had the spots and tiny holes at about 249, since then they have completely disappeared starting about 246 or so. I use the rust erasers and the nagura stone to clean the wheel after each knife I sharpen. I do use the TT-50 after 7-8 knives, it gets a little out of round. I have never used the stone grader on the SJ. never seen where I would need to. the wheel is now at 241mm and still works like a new one.
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: Ken S on June 14, 2018, 11:11:58 pm
Useful post, Grizz.

Ken
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: Grizz on June 15, 2018, 02:07:51 am
Useful post, Grizz.

Ken
Thanks Ken, I consistently get readings from 125-175 BESS using the SJ. maybe one of the reasons is keeping it clean. it does get black from each knife I sharpen, hence the cleaning after each knife.
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: Grizz on June 15, 2018, 02:12:10 am
I might also add that, I don't change the water using the SJ until I'm done for the day. it builds up a good swarf and that is constantly running over the wheel. I think this helps the sharpening process with the SJ.
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: RickKrung on June 15, 2018, 03:35:34 am
Thanks Ken, I consistently get readings from 125-175 BESS using the SJ. maybe one of the reasons is keeping it clean. it does get black from each knife I sharpen, hence the cleaning after each knife.

I get similar BESS readings from just using the SJ stone, sometimes into the low 200s.  I consistently get those readings down to 90 to 130 after stropping with leather (EOU's SharpPad). 

Rick
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: Grizz on June 15, 2018, 04:04:14 am
yes Rick, after stropping I usually stop around 100. jus no need to get sharper, unless your playin with it to see how far down it will go. lol
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: Ken S on June 15, 2018, 04:26:27 am
Rick and Grizz,

You guys have inspired me to try using my Sharp Pad on the next chisels I sharpen. The leather honing wheel works fine with the bevel (and chisel still in the jig). I like stropping the back with a flat surface. The Sharp Pad might be just the ticket.

Ken
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: Grizz on June 15, 2018, 04:24:20 pm
it does make a BIG difference
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: wootz on June 16, 2018, 02:37:15 pm
Tormek added the Japanese wheel years after the stone grader SP-650, it was never designed to work with SJ.
As many of forumers, I also started with Nagura, but then switched to #1000 diamond plate shown below

(http://knifegrinders.com.au/photos/Grading1000.JPG)

When have to use TT-50, I go VERY slowly at the wheel edges not to chip them.
Edge-trailing honing on SJ gives better sharpness than edge-leading.

Overall, the SJ is the best Japanese wheel of all I've tried.

Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: Grizz on June 16, 2018, 04:25:55 pm
Wow Wootz, I just learned a lot from that paragraph. I have chipped the inside edge before. I will try the 1000 diamond to clean the SJ. I am assuming the plate in the jig goes over the top of the 1000 to give it support.
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: Ken S on June 16, 2018, 05:24:57 pm
Very informative post, Wootz.

It should not be surprising that the SJ Japanese wheel needs frequent attention. It is essentially a slow motor driven round Japanese water stone. The trade off for cutting speed is very frequent flattening is required. (Oilstones cut better with frequent dressing, although this is not generally known. For India stones, as well as waterstones a diamond flat plate works well.)

This is a situation when I wish Tormek would share more information. Wootz makes a good point. The stone grader was designed long before either the SJ or the SB. In fact, the stone grader was designed before either CBN or diamond came into general (non industrial) use. From Wootz' experience, I would surmise that the stone grader might not be the ideal tool with the SJ. If so, that is no disgrace. A good tool should perform its intended task well. Secondary tasks are only secondary.

I would not be surprised to see several interchangeable diamond grading stones. In skilled hands, the stone grader is not limited to just 220 and 1000 grit, coarse and fine, with the SG wheel. Some skilled knife sharpeners routinely set the SG to 600 grit with the stone grader. These grit numbers are admittedly approximate, however, that is not a problem. With interchangeable diamond "stone grader" I can see being able to get at least three or more grits from the SG.

The SJ And SB use different abrasive material. Tormek has never claimed that the SJ can be modified. I suspect that it is an excellent one grit wheel.

We are evolving. I have had good success using CBN wheels. (I am not the only forum member using them.) CBN wheels are primarily marketed to turners using high speed dry grinders. They perform this task very well. The Tormek wet grinder use is definitely a distant secondary market for CBN manufacturers. Some CBN wheels have voided warranties if used wet. My steel wheels work wet, but only if an anticorrosion solution is used with the water. Even then, I am careful to dry the wheel and oil the steel reducing bushing. I have found the 250mm Tormek diamond wheels, specifically designed for the Tormek, are a giant step forward.

I expect the SG wheel to remain the wheel of choice for the budget minded user who wants the versatility of the Tormek with only one grinding wheel. I expect the SJ to remain the final step for very particular users. I expect we will see new options for grading the stones.

I look forward to seeing these advances.

Ken
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: cbwx34 on June 16, 2018, 05:40:36 pm
I have a question for some of you... what is the "wear rate" of the SJ stone, compared to your SG stone?

I've had good success maintaining the stone solely with a fine rust eraser... and the stone shows very little wear as a result.  I think of this stone like any other fine waterstone... it should last a very long time.  I know some of you sharpen a lot more than me... but your "wear rate" just seems high to me.  (My opinion... and why I'm asking.)...  :o

Tormek says (https://www.tormek.com/usa/en/accessories/grinding-wheels/sj-250-tormek-japanese-waterstone/) about this stone... "Its unique composition gives this stone an extremely long life".  I wish Tormek would publish some "actual use" numbers... but doubt we'll see that.

Anyway, am curious what the comparison might be.
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: Grizz on June 16, 2018, 05:54:15 pm
very well said Ken. I hope your speculation is right. Although the new diamond wheels are suppose to be maintenance free, other than the water additive, I believe Tormek will eventually develop a diamond plate that is much better than the current grading stone for use with the SG,SB, and the SJ.
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: Ken S on June 16, 2018, 09:00:49 pm
I am planning to make some new Herman type small platforms. I will be making two or three from cutting down the platform of a scissors jig. While Herman's concept of being able to have the platform do double duty and still work with scissors is a commendable example of Yankee thrift, using the full size scissors platform brings  constraints. I think an attached diamond stone for dressing and cleaning would make a very useful dedicated jig. It would be very quick to use.

Ken
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: Grizz on June 16, 2018, 09:40:30 pm
I have a question for some of you... what is the "wear rate" of the SJ stone, compared to your SG stone?

I've had good success maintaining the stone solely with a fine rust eraser... and the stone shows very little wear as a result.  I think of this stone like any other fine waterstone... it should last a very long time.  I know some of you sharpen a lot more than me... but your "wear rate" just seems high to me.  (My opinion... and why I'm asking.)...  :o

Tormek says (https://www.tormek.com/usa/en/accessories/grinding-wheels/sj-250-tormek-japanese-waterstone/) about this stone... "Its unique composition gives this stone an extremely long life".  I wish Tormek would publish some "actual use" numbers... but doubt we'll see that.

Anyway, am curious what the comparison might be.
I find that the SJ gets out of round somehow and I cant figure out why. I always use light pressure and always a side to side motion. it seems as tho I have to true it after about 7-8 knives. mostly Wustoff and Henckels. But, when I re-true it, it is out by less than 2mm. it would only get worse from there on, so I go ahead and true it when I notice it. I have been using the new SJ since march and I am at 241 wheel diameter, so I have used 9 mm so far. I did hone up a few drill bits, but I don't do that anymore. maybe that's where I got the most wear. overall I am happy with the SJ and it does an excellent job. no complaints.
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: Sharpco on June 16, 2018, 10:43:15 pm
I have a question for some of you... what is the "wear rate" of the SJ stone, compared to your SG stone?

I've had good success maintaining the stone solely with a fine rust eraser... and the stone shows very little wear as a result.  I think of this stone like any other fine waterstone... it should last a very long time.  I know some of you sharpen a lot more than me... but your "wear rate" just seems high to me.  (My opinion... and why I'm asking.)...  :o

Tormek says (https://www.tormek.com/usa/en/accessories/grinding-wheels/sj-250-tormek-japanese-waterstone/) about this stone... "Its unique composition gives this stone an extremely long life".  I wish Tormek would publish some "actual use" numbers... but doubt we'll see that.

Anyway, am curious what the comparison might be.

I agree.

I feel that the life of SJ is much longer than SG.
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: cbwx34 on June 16, 2018, 10:55:24 pm
I find that the SJ gets out of round somehow and I cant figure out why. I always use light pressure and always a side to side motion. it seems as tho I have to true it after about 7-8 knives. mostly Wustoff and Henckels. But, when I re-true it, it is out by less than 2mm. it would only get worse from there on, so I go ahead and true it when I notice it. I have been using the new SJ since march and I am at 241 wheel diameter, so I have used 9 mm so far. I did hone up a few drill bits, but I don't do that anymore. maybe that's where I got the most wear. overall I am happy with the SJ and it does an excellent job. no complaints.

Thanks for the reply.

I'm trying to get a little perspective here... in relation to a fine waterstone (sharpening by hand).  Here's my train of thought... maybe I'm off base.

A waterstone is around 8"x3"(x3/4")  or 24sq.in of surface.

A 250mm wheel is about 31" circumference... so around 62sq.in. of surface... essentially 2 1/2 times a waterstone?

I've had some finer waterstones for years... that I've only taken a few mm off... and they've seen a lot of use.

In 3 months... you've used 9mm of wheel... essentially, if I done the math right... you've used an entire waterstone in 3 months?

For a grinding stone, I could see the possibility... for a finishing stone... that just seems high... unless I'm not thinking about this correctly?

Even from a practical standpoint, (no math haha)... 9mm of stone seems a lot.  That's why I'm wondering how it relates to other stones you use?

(I guess, based on my waterstone experience... I would have expected the SJ wheel to outlive me). :)

My one thought, somewhat related, is maybe it's too big a "leap" from the SG wheel to the SJ... requiring it to be used more than normal... especially if trying to "polish out" all the scratches?  I usually use it enough to refine the edge... but not really striving for a "mirror" type finish.

Other thoughts/ideas?
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: Grizz on June 16, 2018, 11:03:51 pm
CB, I do recall sharpening a double edge home made knife for a customer and spending a lot of extra time on it trying to remove a lot of his scratches during his manufacture process. I remember thinking to myself, boy, i'll never do another one of them !. so that probably used up a lot of my stone !
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: wootz on June 17, 2018, 12:38:09 am
Wow Wootz, I just learned a lot from that paragraph. I have chipped the inside edge before. I will try the 1000 diamond to clean the SJ. I am assuming the plate in the jig goes over the top of the 1000 to give it support.

Yes Grizz, the plane iron is to support the diamond plate - these diamond plates are 1mm thick, the cheapest, and they must be that.
Never use your expensive DMT diamond plate to grade the wheel, as the wheel does wear the diamond layer.

I've tried a range of diamond grits on Tormek wheels, and the best are:
- to grade the regular SG from coarse to fine I use #400 diamond plate, sometimes followed by #1000;
- for the Japanese SJ use #1000 (not finer). With the Japanese it is important not to press the diamond plate edge to the wheel or you will chip its edges - you can see in my video how to position it properly https://youtu.be/UckPmizllk0 (https://youtu.be/UckPmizllk0) - skip to the minute 5-6 - the plate contacts the wheel with its surface and not the end.

Using them in the square jig ensures your wheel stays square after grading/declogging. In comparison, when I had been using the grading stone on SG and Nagura on SJ, they would go out of square pretty soon.


PS finishing your FVB today, will email when ready :)
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: Sharpco on June 17, 2018, 12:47:16 am
Wow Wootz, I just learned a lot from that paragraph. I have chipped the inside edge before. I will try the 1000 diamond to clean the SJ. I am assuming the plate in the jig goes over the top of the 1000 to give it support.

Yes Grizz, the plane iron is to support the diamond plate - these diamond plates are 1mm thick, the cheapest, and they must be that.
Never use your expensive DMT diamond plate to grade the wheel.

I've tried a range of diamond grits on Tormek wheels, and the best are:
- to grade the regular SG from coarse to fine I use #400 diamond plate, sometimes followed by #1000;
- for the Japanese SJ #1000. With the Japanese it is important not to press the diamond plate edge to the wheel or you will chip its edges - you can see in my video how to position it properly https://youtu.be/UckPmizllk0 (https://youtu.be/UckPmizllk0) - skip to the minute 5-6

Using them in the square jig ensures your wheel stays square after grading/declogging.

Can Diamond Plate be used on SB-250?
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: wootz on June 17, 2018, 02:36:17 am
Yes SHARPCO, but only the diamond plate #400 and not any finer - I mean I tried finer grits in the past to no good.
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: Ken S on June 18, 2018, 02:12:33 am
Wow Wootz, I just learned a lot from that paragraph. I have chipped the inside edge before. I will try the 1000 diamond to clean the SJ. I am assuming the plate in the jig goes over the top of the 1000 to give it support.

Yes Grizz, the plane iron is to support the diamond plate - these diamond plates are 1mm thick, the cheapest, and they must be that.
Never use your expensive DMT diamond plate to grade the wheel, as the wheel does wear the diamond layer.

I've tried a range of diamond grits on Tormek wheels, and the best are:
- to grade the regular SG from coarse to fine I use #400 diamond plate, sometimes followed by #1000;
- for the Japanese SJ use #1000 (not finer). With the Japanese it is important not to press the diamond plate edge to the wheel or you will chip its edges - you can see in my video how to position it properly https://youtu.be/UckPmizllk0 (https://youtu.be/UckPmizllk0) - skip to the minute 5-6 - the plate contacts the wheel with its surface and not the end.

Using them in the square jig ensures your wheel stays square after grading/declogging. In comparison, when I had been using the grading stone on SG and Nagura on SJ, they would go out of square pretty soon.


PS finishing your FVB today, will email when ready :)

Wootz,

I have been watching every online Tormek and sharpening related video I can find for several years. Yours is among a very small number I would call outstanding. You show the true potential of what the Tormek can do in skilled hands. Your video is my favorite kind, no cutesy background music or video tricks; plenty of solid and accurate information; and a presenter who does not fumble with the EZYlock. You show what can be done with essentially an all Tormek set up and support it with a very impressive BESS reading.

Keep up the good work!

Ken
Title: Re: After truing the SJ stone
Post by: Grizz on June 19, 2018, 06:22:18 pm
yes Ken, Wootz definitely has a slow soft touch for his technique ! Great job Wootz.