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In the Shop => General Tormek Questions => Topic started by: SHARPCO on August 06, 2018, 07:09:23 am

Title: Belt grinder for use with Tormek
Post by: SHARPCO on August 06, 2018, 07:09:23 am
Tormek is good sharpener but as you know it can't do everything. So I'm looking for good belt grinder for use with Tormek.

Can I ask for recommendation?

I'll use it to blade thinning, re-grinding, removing bolster, convex edge sharpening, flatting edge, repairing broken tip.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Belt grinder for use with Tormek
Post by: Ken S on August 06, 2018, 01:20:29 pm
I have found the Viel an able complement to my Tormek. Best source is sharpeningmadeeasy.com.

Please check your messages.

Ken
Title: Re: Belt grinder for use with Tormek
Post by: WolfY on August 06, 2018, 05:37:56 pm
Use a 36*4 belt sander for wood. Works great for flattening edge etc. Not realy good for thinning as thinning is to hard on small machines. Depends on how many thinning projects you have of cause. I use angle grinder to thin. it is fast, but you need to cool the knife all the time. Not easy especially if you are not very comf. with the grinder. regular good belt grinder with all the knife jigs for that purpose will take you to other levels and costs.

How to thin correctly is a constant question with not really good/ practical/ not expensive/ easy to do, solutions.
Title: Re: Belt grinder for use with Tormek
Post by: Ken S on August 07, 2018, 06:25:45 am
I have heard of enthusiasts grinding knives from scratch using the Viel and Kalamazoo 1SM. That much intensive grinding is not generally considered practical on them, however, years ago, who would have imagined grinding drill bits or using diamond wheels with a Tormek?

Ken
Title: Re: Belt grinder for use with Tormek
Post by: RickKrung on September 12, 2018, 03:23:32 pm
With the Farmers Market work I've done recently and a concomitant need for repairing edges and heavier grinding and a desire to not have to change a grinding wheel for those repairs, I'm now considering getting/using a belt grinder.  My question is, what is "good enough"?  I've read and seen Viel and Kalamazoo sanders used and recommended, but I'm not willing to put out the bucks for one as I do not yet see a sander as a significant part of my sharpening arsenal, I am wondering about the utility of a cheaper, smaller 1" belt sander I already have in my metal shop. 
https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/00234013 (https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/00234013)

I haven't really paid attention to the types and grits of belts used but I am think appropriate belts (1"x30") are available.  I can see that it may not have some of the capacity (working space) as the better sanders, but has anyone used such a unit and if so, what is your appraisal? 

Rick
Title: Re: Belt grinder for use with Tormek
Post by: SHARPCO on September 13, 2018, 01:42:26 am
With the Farmers Market work I've done recently and a concomitant need for repairing edges and heavier grinding and a desire to not have to change a grinding wheel for those repairs, I'm now considering getting/using a belt grinder.  My question is, what is "good enough"?  I've read and seen Viel and Kalamazoo sanders used and recommended, but I'm not willing to put out the bucks for one as I do not yet see a sander as a significant part of my sharpening arsenal, I am wondering about the utility of a cheaper, smaller 1" belt sander I already have in my metal shop. 
https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/00234013 (https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/00234013)

I haven't really paid attention to the types and grits of belts used but I am think appropriate belts (1"x30") are available.  I can see that it may not have some of the capacity (working space) as the better sanders, but has anyone used such a unit and if so, what is your appraisal? 

Rick

Many people use 1x30 belt sander for knife sharpening. Of course, 1x42 belt sander is better but I think 1x30 is OK for repair the knives. I used the Work Sharp Ken Onion - Blade grinding attachment for this until a week ago. It was small but quite useful and I've been using it even after bought a Viel S-5-M.
Title: Re: Belt grinder for use with Tormek
Post by: Ken S on September 13, 2018, 03:54:34 am
I have no experience with 1x30 belt grinders. I have found that my 1x42 Viel works well with my Tormek. Looking at the MSC link, a 1x42 Viel can be purchased new for around $100US. It was designed to work with a furnace motor, which should be readily and inexpensively available used. I don't see where the Enco is any cheaper. Since you already have one, I would use it.

I would be reluctant to chance one of the really inexpensive 1x30 belt grinders. It might work OK, however, I have watched several you tubes showing truing the wheels and replacing bearings. The Viel is a quality machine right out if the box.

Ken
Title: Re: Belt grinder for use with Tormek
Post by: RickKrung on September 13, 2018, 05:33:14 pm
Thanks, Ken and SHAPRCO,

The 1x30 I have is a bit better than the Horror Freight sander, but I'm not sure by how much.  I had an HF one for years and it was servicable for what I needed, which was deburring metal cutoffs and some rounding of corners on both metal and wood. I have links to the Curry Custom Cutlery YT videos on tricking out this type of sand for better performance but have not watched them much yet.  The sander I have looks like it will work without much tricking.  The bearings look decent.  I'll check it out a bit and see if it could use some wheel truing.  A variable speed control would seem very useful.

Ken, I was not able to find the Viel you mentioned on the MSC site, but I have looked at it elsewhere, including Steve B's.  I am interested at this point in trying out a belt sander I have for the limited purpose of repairs and heavier/rough grinding of bevels on very dull knives before taking them to the Tormek and to reduce grinding wheel changes.  If I find I like it, then I'll think about investing in a better belt grinder. 

What about the belts.  What abrasives and grits?

Rick
Title: Re: Belt grinder for use with Tormek
Post by: RickKrung on July 10, 2019, 08:10:31 am
I finally bit the bullet and bought a Viel belt sander.  I also got the variable speed motor and needed to mount it.  I started out following Ken S' conversion documented on the BESS Exchange.  I deviated from that approach and came up with something different.  Same result, however, a working belt sander to complement the Tormek. 

Read more details here (http://bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=480). 

Rick
Title: Re: Belt grinder for use with Tormek
Post by: Ken S on July 10, 2019, 12:06:32 pm
There are many workable belt grinder solutions. A good craftsman will be able to work with any of them. My first belt grinder was a $25 yard sale stripped down Dayton. To call it wobegone would be kind. Replacing the lamp cord haywired to the motor, and adding a proper belt and pulleys made it a surprisingly good working tool. I later donated it to my grandchildren's school where it is still in regular service.

Steve Bottorff showed me how to put the Viel on its back, making it even more versatile. It really is a useful complement to the Tormek.

Rick, you have made some substantial improvements to the original conversion. Outstanding!

Ken
Title: Re: Belt grinder for use with Tormek
Post by: RickKrung on July 11, 2019, 07:26:45 am
With the motor mounted, I wanted to get to trying out some of the Tormek jigs.  But first, I could not stand the tracking adjustment, so I changed it.  I put in 1/4-20 nylon set screws with jam nuts, four of them, two high, two low.  Adjusting tracking is a breeze now and the upper pulley plunger (spring loaded) moves much more easily, giving me more comfort that the spring is doing what it is supposed to.  That was the easy part.
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3705.0;attach=3410)

Then I went to try sharpening a knife.  What I discovered is that the upper corner of the frame interferes with the jig collar.  I tried three different configurations of the USB/BGM/MultiBase, but of course, none resolved the conflict the frame causes.

Photo showing the collar interference.  Note the angle is 18º.
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3705.0;attach=3412)

Photo showing how it is possible to raise the jig to get above the interference, but then the contact point of the knife edge with the belt is above the top of the stock platen.  Angles down to 12º can be done.  I can make a longer platen, but I had not heard that was necessary.     
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3705.0;attach=3414)

Any of you Tormekers who are using a Viel have any problems like this?  If not, what are you doing.  If yes and you've found a solution, please let me in on it. 

At this point, I am completely stymied and feel I cannot go forward with knife sharpening at least.  I have not tried any other jigs, but I will not be surprised if there are similar issues. 

Thanks,

Rick
Title: Re: Belt grinder for use with Tormek
Post by: RickKrung on July 14, 2019, 07:10:37 am
I did push through that frustration.  Just took waking up to a new day. 

I tried three combinations of the USB/BGM/FVB to find one that would work to get the USB bar high enough to let most of the Tormek knife jig/collar to clear the frame.  Note the stock platen is still there.  The USB is in its closest to the belt and lowest above the frame position.  It is not useable for any Tormek jigs in that position. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3705.0;attach=3417)

As pointed out in a previous post, mounting the USB this way puts the contact point of the knife edge (using 139mm projection) above the stock platen.  So, I got out some 1" square steel tubing and made a longer platen.  It is far more rigid as well, which pleases me. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3705.0;attach=3421)
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3705.0;attach=3419)

I was able to sharpen a junker knife to 14º but that was as small of an angle as would work without something more interfering with the frame.  This did require replacing the locking knob with a 6mm set screw and still the end of the jaw width adjusting screw and even the head of the adjusting screw made contact with the belt.  This will ultimately NOT be the final configuration, at least for use of the Tormek knife jigs. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3705.0;attach=3423)

The above knife is not all that impressive.  But,... it did start out as a serrated knife with a 1/2" long bolster, all of which were sanded away quite easily.  So, the Viel has proven its usefulness this far.  I think what it will take is to put the sander on its face (of the frame), so the top pulley is closest and the belt is running away.  The sander would need to be secured to a work surface, a piece of plywood.  Then, mount the USB/BGM/FVB in front of the pulley so the "rear workings" of the jigs are clear of the pulley. This would make it very similar to the Tormek sharpening edge trailing.  I discussed this with Ken S. and we both think that putting the sander frame up on an incline would get the knife/jig level so you could see what his happening at the edge/belt interface better.  I have enough 1" square steel tubing to make a platen for that setup, so I don't have to pirate the one on the front. 

In the meantime, I wanted to make a Herman Trivilino (HT) style platform jig, albeit, 1" wide.  I had a section of the scissors jig platform left over from making one for the 2" Tormek wheels, which I knew would come in handy someday.  This day, it got used for the belt sander HT platform.  Worked very well, able to get the angle as low as 9º.  I don't sharpen anything at that shallow of an angle, but at least the jig will allow it. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3705.0;attach=3425)
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3705.0;attach=3427)
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3705.0;attach=3429)

I think there is hope for this Viel, as far as using it as the precursor for putting bevels back on severely dull edges using Tormek knife jigs.  It definitely will work for repairing tips, removing bolsters, flattening edges, etc., that don't necessarily rely on jigs but can be done using the Tormek knife jigs.  It will NOT, by any means, replace or suplant the Tormek, as the Tormek is the foundation on which all of the actual sharpening will take place.  I am, however, hoping the Viel will take the place of the Norton 3x 8" grindstone I've been using on the Tormek for the purpose of putting bevels back on severely dull edges. 

It is working well enough that I am going to take my entire Tormek kit along on a two-stop week long road trip to Colorado, to attend a bamboo fly rod makers gathering in the Rockies.  These guys dull plane blades fast, planing bamboo.  I am sure they all have ways of sharpening their plane blades and probably knives as well.  I know of one who uses the Work Sharp.  It will be interesting to see what they think of the Tormek. 

Rick
Title: Re: Belt grinder for use with Tormek
Post by: SHARPCO on July 14, 2019, 10:41:27 am
Rick.

Is it possible to use your variable speed Viel with foot switch?
Title: Re: Belt grinder for use with Tormek
Post by: Jan on July 14, 2019, 10:46:58 am
Rick, thank you for sharing your effort to teach Viel to accept Tormek jigs. Great job done!

When I saw all your toiling to avoid collision of the jigs with Viel frame, I wondered if it would not be easier to use the Viel in horizontal position, as it is used by Steve Bottorff? The passive pulley provides plenty of room for USB and all Tormek jigs.

Jan
Title: Re: Belt grinder for use with Tormek
Post by: RickKrung on July 14, 2019, 04:54:01 pm
Rick.

Is it possible to use your variable speed Viel with foot switch?

I don't know why it wouldn't work.  The control box plugs into a standard 110VAC power source and does not appear to have a "ready" state.  I have a foot switch that I use with my shop vac.  I tried it.  It works. 

Rick, thank you for sharing your effort to teach Viel to accept Tormek jigs. Great job done!

When I saw all your toiling to avoid collision of the jigs with Viel frame, I wondered if it would not be easier to use the Viel in horizontal position, as it is used by Steve Bottorff? The passive pulley provides plenty of room for USB and all Tormek jigs.

Jan

Yes, Jan, it has been an unexpected journey.  But... hey, what is the fun in having things be too easy ;)

And yes, putting the sander horizontal, as SteveB does, is exactly what I mean when I say "put it on its face".  However, I am curious.  The picture you show is of the sander on its back side with the front side of the belt up.  Steve turns the sander around and tips it over towards himself, putting the sander on its back (@0:23 sec (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Gt_J9PXa-U).) with the front of the sander/belt facing upward.  When he turns it on (0:38 sec.) the belt is running in the direction from the passive pulley towards the motor.  He is showing what appears to be the stock Viel (non-variable speed motor) and I was unware the it turns in that direction.  In my setup, I am using the Penn State Industries variable speed motor with a smaller drive pulley.  To make mine work as Steve's, I would have to install a reversing switch, which I am planning on doing.  It would be interesting if Steve produced a video showing how he uses the PSI variable speed motor.

What I am talking about, in my post above, is placing the sander with the front side of the frame and belt down, putting the back side up and running away, "edge trailing".  But instead of using the slack belt, I am thinking to put another 1" square steel tube platen on the back side.  I think using the short section of unsupported belt, between the top of the platen and the passive pulley, as a slack belt for doing convex work would work.  I think it would flatten the convexity created by the slack belt, which could be a good thing.  If that does not work or is not a good idea, I would make that platen easily removable so the full length slack belt could be used or just re-positionable so the slack belt portion could be increased.  Using the sander in this manner would not require installing a reversing switch. 

Either way, the jigs are out in front of and angled away from the passive pulley, eliminating the collisions/interferences. 

Rick
Title: Viel Front Side Up or Down?
Post by: RickKrung on July 14, 2019, 05:02:36 pm
I tried a "mock up" of placing the Viel belt sander on its face, with the back side of the belt facing upward and with the sander turned around and turned with back side down and the front side of the belt facing upward. 

In the first case, with the sander just tilted forward, putting the face down, puts the passive pulley very close to the table surface.  Too close in my estimation.  It does put the belt running away for edge trailing and does not require a reversing switch.
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3705.0;attach=3433)

In the second case, with the sander turned around and the front side facing upward elevates the passive pulley, keeping it far away from the table.  It does make the working plane higher, which could be awkward, at least for me as I sit while working rather than standing.  It does require installing a reversing switch.
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3705.0;attach=3435)

I also tried putting a piece of 2x4 wood under the base of the frame, elevating it but also lowering/angling the passive pulley/belt.  I like this much better and will likely implement it in this manner when I have time.  I will do it in a way to make sure the passive pulley has good clearance from the table.  And the unit will be firmly bolted down so it doesn't topple over move.
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3705.0;attach=3437) 

Rick

Title: Re: Belt grinder for use with Tormek
Post by: RickKrung on July 14, 2019, 06:10:35 pm
It was pointed out, off-list, that the stock Viel motor is reversible.  The nameplate even says how to do it, just reverse two leads.  Good to know if one is not interested in the variable speed mod. 

Rick
Title: Re: Belt grinder for use with Tormek
Post by: Jan on July 14, 2019, 09:32:24 pm
Rick, thanks for your detailed explanations!

I do not have a belt sander like Viel, but as an occasional knife maker, I would like to have one for convex grinding. That is the reason I am reading your posts carefully.

Currently I use my 3" hand belt sander, clamped upside down on a wooden plate. Sleeves for the USB are drilled into massive beech wood prisms.

Jan
Title: Re: Belt grinder for use with Tormek
Post by: Ken S on July 15, 2019, 02:22:42 am
Jan,

I remember your belt sander from early posts when you were restoring your grandfather's mortise chisel. It was a well done labor of love and those warm feelings were obvious.

I believe a creative craftsman has his choice among many tools. In my case, the first belt sander I used was my grandfather's 1930s vintage Sears Companion 3x36” sander. I used it incorrectly and destroyed a new belt. (I could use it more successfully today.)

As much as I like the versatility of my Viel, an imaginative worker like Jan will do good work with a variety of tools. In my opinion, one of the common traits of the Tormek and belt grinders is their versatility.

Ken
Title: Re: Belt grinder for use with Tormek
Post by: Jan on July 15, 2019, 10:06:30 am
Yes Ken, you are correct. It is almost five years ago when I made this set up. It works fine for massive steel removal and because there is a full spectrum of grits available (24 to 320) you can easily remove scratches from any previous grinding step. It is restricted to flat grinding (Scandi grind) because the platen is almost beneath the whole belt.

Jan
Title: Re: Belt grinder for use with Tormek
Post by: RickKrung on July 18, 2019, 09:24:48 pm
Still pursuing getting the Viel set up for use with the Tormek knife jigs.  I have developed a jig for setting the USB at four angles that I use most commonly, 12, 14, 16, and 18º.  The Images below show the jig with the USB at two angles, 12 and 14º.  The photo below was posted before but is included here for illustration of the sander setup.

The drawings show the Viel platen in a vertical position, with the sander in a typical upright orientation.  There is a conflict with the frame where the jig cannot be set to less than 14º in this position.  Therefore, I am assuming to have the Viel sander on its back with the front side facing upward, but at an angle as show in the photo below. 

The jig has four USB angle positions.  In order to make getting the jig in and out between the USB and belt, without abrading the surface that contacts the belt, I put a 5º relief angle on the vertical face that goes between the USB and the belt/platen.  I've not made one yet to test.  I'm on the road for about a week, so I'll get on making a jig when I get home. 

Rick
Title: Re: Belt grinder for use with Tormek
Post by: Jan on July 19, 2019, 08:53:29 pm
Rick, the figures in the drawing of your angle jig are for a projection length of 139 mm?

Jan
Title: Re: Belt grinder for use with Tormek
Post by: RickKrung on July 20, 2019, 03:48:48 am
Rick, the figures in the drawing of your angle jig are for a projection length of 139 mm?

Jan

Jan,

Yes, thank you for that question.  I apologize for not mentioning that in my post.  Yes, I use 139mm as my standard projection, unless the tool/blade requires something different. A longer projection might alleviate some of the conflicts between the jig and the Viel frame, but I don't want to work that way. 

Rick
Title: Re: Belt grinder for use with Tormek
Post by: Jan on July 20, 2019, 09:24:18 am
Thanks for your explanation, Rick. The kenjig projection length 139 mm is a magic number of this forum. My next observation was, that the protrusions of your jig are not exactly square. Are the horizontal drawing dimensions measured from a contact point of the USB and jig protrusion?

Jan
Title: Re: Belt grinder for use with Tormek
Post by: RickKrung on July 20, 2019, 05:02:58 pm
Thanks for your explanation, Rick. The kenjig projection length 139 mm is a magic number of this forum. My next observation was, that the protrusions of your jig are not exactly square. Are the horizontal drawing dimensions measured from a contact point of the USB and jig protrusion?

Jan

Jan,

I am not clear on what you are asking.  I have added some details to the figure to see if I can clarify. 

USB positioned at 12º.
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3705.0;attach=3496)

Yes, the jig surfaces that set the distance of the USB from the belt/platen are not square.  I put in a relief so the jig can be inserted and removed without being trapped between the USB and the belt.  It is important to have the USB in contact with the top surface of each position and the angled surface that sets the "protrusion" from the platen. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3705.0;attach=3474)

Dimensions of just the 12º setting.  The vertical distance (the 0.400" dimension in the figure) is not critical but the distance from the belt/platen to the apex/intersection (0.412) of those two surfaces is critical.  With the relief angle, it is a difficult machining operation that I have not yet figured out how I am going to do it.  I am confident that I'll figure it out, but I have to get in the shop to do that. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3705.0;attach=3498)

This diagram shows the dimensions for each angle step.  As mentioned, these are the only critical dimensions.
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3705.0;attach=3502)

The dimension at the apex of the two surfaces differs from the dimension where the USB contacts the vertical surface.  The protrusion distance that establishes the specific angles is determined by the apex distance (0.412") from the belt/platen, NOT the dimension from the point of contact of the USB (0.392") with that vertical surface. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3705.0;attach=3504)

I hope this clarifies/answers your question. 

Rick
Title: Re: Belt grinder for use with Tormek
Post by: Jan on July 20, 2019, 10:16:28 pm
Rick, thanks for your detailed explanation. It is fully clarified now.  :)
I was looking for the dimension 0.392" (my calculation is almost the same 0.390").

Jan
Title: Re: Belt grinder for use with Tormek
Post by: RickKrung on July 24, 2019, 07:11:53 am
I have just posted my latest design (Tormek Knife Jigs on Tilted Viel Sander (https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=3515.msg27793#msg27793)) for using the Tormkek knife jigs on a Viel 1x42 belt sander.  I have not actually built this yet and so have not actually tried it to see if it really works as designed.  I have not tried any other jigs, either in CAD or for real, but I am hopeful it will work for most jigs. 

Please go to the link (embedded in the text above) and continue any discussion there.  That way, we can keep it together. 

I also want to figure out a good setup for using the Viel in its nominal upright/forward position.  This will require removing some of the top/front corner of the frame.  I think there will be plenty of "slot" left for using any Viel jigs that I might get.  I am thinking some of the more traditional uses, both for metal and wood, may work better in this orientation. 

The template that I designed above would need to be used, if I end up keeping the sander in the nominal position.  Or some other redesigned template, based on the effect of removing that corner. 

Rick
Title: Re: Belt grinder for use with Tormek
Post by: RickKrung on July 28, 2019, 06:19:29 am
...snip...
I also want to figure out a good setup for using the Viel in its nominal upright/forward position.  This will require removing some of the top/front corner of the frame.  I think there will be plenty of "slot" left for using any Viel jigs that I might get.  I am thinking some of the more traditional uses, both for metal and wood, may work better in this orientation. 
...snip...

I did go forward with setting the Viel up in its normal upright/forward position.  Discussion and images posted in that "other" thread (https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=3515.msg27825#msg27825). 

Rick