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In the Shop => Knife Sharpening => Topic started by: RickKrung on August 30, 2018, 06:43:10 pm

Title: First Farmer's Market
Post by: RickKrung on August 30, 2018, 06:43:10 pm
This is being ported from another thread so as to not "hijack" that thread.
https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=2639.165#lastPost (https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=2639.165#lastPost)

(This is rather lengthy and is getting away from the topic of this thread, so I'm going to port this over to a new thread, once this is posted here and will insert the new thread link here.)
https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=3725.0 (https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=3725.0)

The Farmer's Market went really well yesterday.  I only sharpened five knives, four paying customers and a freebie for my daughter (a strange, unequal trapezoidal shaped veggie harvester [the knife, not my daughter, although she is a veggie harvester]).  I charged $5 per blade.  The low volume was to be expected as the availability of knife sharpening had only been announced the day before on the Market's Facebook page. 

The market is open 3-6:30pm Weds. and had never before had anyone sharpening anything.  It was very dead for the first hour, even for the other vendors (one berries, two veggies, one bakery and one fruit).  It really picked up for the other vendors after that.  While I only sharpened five knives at the market, there was a fair bit of interest by "passer-by"s and several asked "Oh, will you be here next week".  My booth was at one end, next to the berries, so someone had to actually notice me over there and take an interest. One woman brought with her two knives her husband had given to her to get sharpened.  Two others went home and brought back a knife.  I also came home with five knives and a pair of scissors to sharpen.  One of those five knives is quite interesting and will be very much a challenge, but more on that later and may deserve a thread of its own.  That knife was among three others in a large canvas folding wrap like chef's use for storing and transporting their knives.

The two brought by the woman were, an ancient bone-handled "Buck"-like folding knife and an even more ancient "traditional" hunting knife with a leather ring handle (I didn't take any photos).  Both were literally as dull as butter knives.  The folding knife scored an impressively dull 1940 BESS.  The hunting knife was extremely convex and thick, almost like an axe and had a "fuller" down it's length.  It was even duller than the folding knife, so much so, I didn't measure it. 

One of the "went home for" knives was a longer Farberware knife that was in decent shape, sharpened quickly and turned out my sharpest edge of the day from the basic treatment (see below).  The last knife was a shorter "custom" hunting knife the guy got from his grandfather, who received it as a gift from the maker, but it supposedly never had and edge on it.  They guy had tried to sharpen it, to no avail, but at least didn't really damage it. 

Generally, for all the other knives, I used the SB stone and/or DF250, ceramic rod (CR)(thanks CB), leather wheel (LW) and SharpPAD (SP).  The hunting knife seemed like it was going to take the most work, so I started with the DF wheel and finished as above.  The custom knife was so beautiful I wanted to do a nicer job, so I started with the DF250 wheel (DF) and used the SJ stone between between the SB and LW.  Specific combinations are listed below.

The angles on the folding, hunting and custom knives did not "measure" using my laser gionometer, so I had to "hunt" for the angles using black marker and my jigs.  I think they didn't measure because they were so dull and rounded that they diffused the laser beam too widely.  I started with the shallowest angle that seemed right and set up the Tormek using whatever jig that was close.  If that was too shallow, adjusted with the next jig until I got as good a match
as I could and then sharpened.  They all ended up at 16º or 18º.

NUMBERS

I only measured three of the knives before sharpening, but for all the following measurements were taken during sharpening:  After grinding and after stropping: Three measurements were taken, near the base, in the middle and near the tip and averaged.  All measurements were taken using an Edge On Up PT50A which measures the force required to severe a standardized, certified media, in grams. 

Cabbage Lopper
SB/CR/HW        SP
    250               222

Bone Handle Folding  Before sharpening: 1940 gf
DF/CR/HW        SP
    365               215

Leather Handle
DF/SB/CR/HW  SP
    217              190

Farberware
SB/CR/HW       SP
    204              157

Custom
DF/SB/SJ/HW  SP
    289             169

For all knives, I did the paper push cut demonstration.  All still had a few "catches" except the Farberware.  But, all of the customers were VERY happy with the results and the lady that brought to two for her husband tipped an extra $5.

All in all, I think a very successful day and first attempt at a Farmer's Market.  It was fun, but I think when it gets busier in subsequent weeks it will become less so and more like work.  I anticipate "finishing" with the big event of it moving to a new location in mid-Sept. 

Rick

P.S. Oh Yikes, my daughter posted a photo on their Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/bakercityfarmersmarketor/?fb_dtsg_ag=AdzAgL5j1Mh_USnFWtnGynL79khBe9C3II3yOksiIL9tJQ%3AAdzJcYwf4Sg3kNDOC9ST1-vKzf7JZz5PPqoxky3Apy83nQ (https://www.facebook.com/bakercityfarmersmarketor/?fb_dtsg_ag=AdzAgL5j1Mh_USnFWtnGynL79khBe9C3II3yOksiIL9tJQ%3AAdzJcYwf4Sg3kNDOC9ST1-vKzf7JZz5PPqoxky3Apy83nQ)

Couple photos, after the fact.

Veggie Lopper
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2535)

Chef's Knives (although the curved one is a bit out of character it seems to me).
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2537)

Rick



Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: cbwx34 on August 30, 2018, 10:19:55 pm
Congrats!

That curved knife in your picture looks similar to the knife posted about (https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=3720.0) the other day.  (And that Shun looks like it has some serious chips... which seems par for those knives... or maybe it's just the picture).

So, excluding lasers and BESS stuff, how long did the sharpening take?  (From clamping to done I guess).  And are you using the standard Stop Collar?

Glad it worked out!  :)
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: RickKrung on August 30, 2018, 10:35:19 pm
Congrats!

That curved knife in your picture looks similar to the knife posted about (https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=3720.0) the other day.  (And that Shun looks like it has some serious chips... which seems par for those knives... or maybe it's just the picture).

Yes, those are chips and they are huge, for a knife apex.  I'm going to have to do a bit of research before tackling that one. 

So, excluding lasers and BESS stuff, how long did the sharpening take?  (From clamping to done I guess).  And are you using the standard Stop Collar?

Glad it worked out!  :)

Can't say for sure how long.  Too few regular knives (one) - only a few minutes for it.  Three took extra long, partly because of how dull they were and that may be more of a norm than unusual for the setting. 

Me too. 

Rick
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: RickKrung on August 31, 2018, 12:02:12 am
Congrats!

That curved knife in your picture looks similar to the knife posted about (https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=3720.0) the other day.  (And that Shun looks like it has some serious chips... which seems par for those knives... or maybe it's just the picture).

Yes, those are chips and they are huge, for a knife apex.  I'm going to have to do a bit of research before tackling that one. 


I left a message with the owner of the Shun, concerning my concerns.  She looked them up and they sharpen for free if shipping is paid for.  That is what she is going to do and I think she'll be much happier.  I know I will.  I have enough learning to do without tackling that one right now. 

As for that curved one, yes it does look like that other one.  I think I want to see if a much longer protrusion (to the extreme of the USB adjustment?) may more closely match the radius of the knife. 

Rick
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: Ken S on September 01, 2018, 10:55:43 am
Well done, Rick.

I would suggest you make up a few (one sheet of paper cut into several pieces) contact information sheets for Shun as handouts for future Shun requests. Good researching find with the Shun info.

Ken
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: RickKrung on September 01, 2018, 07:07:07 pm
Good idea. I just looked it up and they do offer free sharpening, to a degree. There is a long list of what they “do not do” and chip and crack repair is one of them.  Maybe for a fee they do. If not, I may see that knife again. If so, I’ll need to figure what it will take. I’m concerned that thinning may be part of it and I think I’m not able to do that yet. Clearly about 1/8” needs to be ground off the apex, which is when the thinning may be needed. Do those blades have only a single bevel or two?

Rick
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: Crusty on September 02, 2018, 12:55:15 am
Shun knives are normally double bevel 8 deg per side.
It looks like the owner has been chopping bone or frozen food, Shun knives are very prone to this sort of damage if treated badly.
I would re-profile at 15 deg per side to make the edge a bit more robust
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: cbwx34 on September 03, 2018, 08:42:25 pm
Shun knives are normally double bevel 8 deg per side.
It looks like the owner has been chopping bone or frozen food, Shun knives are very prone to this sort of damage if treated badly.
I would re-profile at 15 deg per side to make the edge a bit more robust

Shun claims 16° per side...

Quote from: https://shun.kaiusaltd.com/technology
Shun’s handcrafted Japanese knives are sharpened to a precise 16° angle on each side of the blade (for double-beveled blades, this means a comprehensive angle of 32°).

They also claim any chopping can chip the knife....

Quote from: https://shun.kaiusaltd.com/faq
Without proper knife technique, micro chipping can be the downside of very hard stainless steel. A cook who is unfamiliar with the hardness of Japanese knives and is used to strongly chopping down with a knife against a cutting board, may indeed chip the knife. The damage will be even more pronounced when cutting against ceramic, glass or marble (please don’t!). Micro chips in the blade edge can also occur if a spot of rust develops on the extremely thin edge, too.

The good news is that with a gliding cut, the proper cutting surface, and making sure the knife is thoroughly dry before storing, the chances of chipping are reduced enormously. What’s more, micro chips can easily be sharpened out. Our Warranty Service Department will be happy to help you with that.

Of course, if there is a problem with the materials or manufacturing itself, we’ll take care of that, too. Just send in your knife to our Warranty Service Department for evaluation.

... and a "slicing motion" should be used, (no chopping)...

Quote from: https://shun.kaiusaltd.com/faq
Chips can happen due to improper cutting technique. Shun Cutlery is designed to be used in a smooth, slicing motion—and never in a forceful, up-and-down “chopping” manner.

The proper cutting motion is a "locomotive" motion, pushing the knife forward and down as you cut through the food, then pulling the knife up and back towards you (in order to position it for the next cut). This motion is also similar to cutting wood with a handsaw—forward and down, then back. The razor-sharp blade of your Shun makes this practically effortless.

When you first begin using a Shun, go slowly and enjoy the precision cutting ability of your new kitchen cutlery. As you gain experience, you will be able to work more quickly. No matter what your experience level, be careful and always pay attention to where your fingers are in relation to the knife.

(Might be worth printing some of this out, and/or guiding the customer to the above web page).
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: Crusty on September 03, 2018, 09:47:34 pm
I have sharpened Shun, I own some too, definitely not 16 per side.
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: Ken S on September 04, 2018, 03:18:18 pm
In the same way that auto racing has benefitted driving the family car, farmers market experience and development can benefit the average Tormek home sharpener. Good work!

Ken
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: RickKrung on September 05, 2018, 08:03:20 am
From last week's initial Farmer's Market outing, the knives below were among those that came home with me for sharpening.  The Shun has been discussed and is not one I'll be sharpening, at least not yet.  The other three I tackled today. 

...snip...  I also came home with five knives and a pair of scissors to sharpen.  One of those five knives is quite interesting and will be very much a challenge, but more on that later and may deserve a thread of its own.  That knife was among three others in a large canvas folding wrap like chef's use for storing and transporting their knives.
...snip...

Chef's Knives (although the curved one is a bit out of character it seems to me).
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2537)

Rick

The owner and I had discussed "toothy" edges and it was clear she liked them, so I thought I would attempt to do just that.  I decided to try using the DF250 diamond wheel, which is said to be 600 grit and just the leather honing wheel.  All three knives were sharpened at 16º and took quite a bit of grinding as they were quite dull.  In an attempt to retain the toothy-ness, I backed off the angle a little bit for honing, but I don't know just how much. I was using my recently built, single-angle ball bearing HanJig where the angle is set by adjusting the USB height until both sets of bearings rotate about the same amount.  To back off the angle, I adjusted the USB downward until the upper set of bearings rotated less.  I have not checked to see how much angle change that amounts to. 

I was able to set up all three knives in Tormek jigs and so worked through all on the DF set at 16º to get a detectable burr along the entire edge.  This took quite a bit on all three.  Then I set up the honing wheel as above and honed all three. I then measured sharpness using the EOU PT50A, measuring near the base, middle and tip, as before.  Previously, I only reported the averaged sharpness.  Today, I am reporting all three readings as there was quite a bit of variability and that resulted in me taking extra steps with the EOU Sharp Pad, and reporting all three readings and the average.  Two of the knives were Sabatier, a French brand.  The third, highly curved knife is labeled Lamson 32000 but I could find nothing about it.

Sabatier Carving/Chef 9-1/2"
       DF/LW     SP-L    SP-P/L
       338          349       156
       186          151       123
       195          209       152
Ave. 240          236       143

Sabatier Filet 9-1/2"
       DF/LW     SP-L    SP-P/L
       160          190       170
       143           68       141
       236          148       133
Ave. 180          135       148

Lamson 32000 6-3/4"
       DF/LW     SP-L    SP-P/L
       221          192       172
       208          137       165
       352          215        98
Ave. 260          181       145

Looking at the first two columns, DF/LW and SP-L (SP-L is for Sharp Pad Leather pad only), there was a general improvement from grinding/honing to further deburring with just the Sharp Pad leather pad, but there was quite a bit of variability between location on the blades, being lower in the middle compared to the near the base or tip.  This puzzled and troubled me as I was able to get a decent burr along the entire edge of all knives.  I thought that I must not have been getting the tips and base areas deburred as well.  That is why I re-treated all three using the polyethylene pad and then the leather pad of the Sharp Pad.  Resulting sharpness readings were far more consistent across locations and knives.  All three knives push cut copy paper and phone book paper much cleaner and more consistently also. 

I'm thinking I didn't get the blades adequately deburred with the honing such that further treatment with just the leather SP pad worked.  It took working the burrs further on the poly pad and then the leather pad to get rid of the burrs, even though a couple of the middle sections were less sharp afterward, the blades as a whole were more consistently sharp. 

I'm thinking I'll give this system a try at the Farmer's Market tomorrow, and possibly not back off the angle for honing.  I have no good sense of whether or not I achieved the toothy-ness I was after.  They look like they are.  But I do know that I am happy with how they turned out irrespective of whether they are toothy or not.  And I learned something.

Rick
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: cbwx34 on September 06, 2018, 03:10:52 pm
I have sharpened Shun, I own some too, definitely not 16 per side.

I guessed that you saw 16° on the Shun website, and figured it was 8 dps (degrees per side), which is why I posted the "official" quote that addressed this.  It's a bit buried on their site. ;)

Whether they actual achieve this is a different matter (probably depends on how they sharpen), but everything indicates that's what they strive for... for example some of their sharpening equipment is set for 16 dps.

On a different note... it was pointed out to me in an email that removing the chips will move the edge into thicker metal... this actually might help alleviate future chipping.  (The ultimate solution, at least from Shun though, seems to be a "relearning" of how to cut).
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: RickKrung on September 06, 2018, 04:28:59 pm
Yesterday was a total bust.  Not one single new customer.  The only one was the woman picking up her four knives, the three that I sharpened and the Shun.  I shared with her a drawing showing the Shun knife edge, as it was originally and what it would be like after chip repair and resharpening.  She talked excitedly about how nice it was to be able to slice so thinly with that knife before and didn't seem to register that it would be almost as thin once sharpened.
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2543)

I determined the overall blade angle by two methods, one measuring with a digital protractor and the other by measuring the blade thickness near the bevel and at a measured distance back from the bevel.  Both came out at 6º.  I was astonished to find that the blade thickness at the bevel was 0.15mm (0.006").  No wonder there is so much chipping and damage.  I drew in the 16º per side bevel listed on the Shun web site. 

I also determined how much blade would have to be removed to repair the chips and again drew in the 16º per side bevel.  Blade thickness at that location would be about 0.25mm (0.010).  Still quite thin, but hopefully a bit sturdier. 

The woman was convinced Shun would sharpen/repair the blade for free, despite the chips and despite what it says on their web site about not doing that.  She was quite pleased with the edges on the other three knives.  I showed her a push cut of telephone book paper and she wiggled with glee and went away happy.

The other woman who had left a knife and a pair of scissors with me to sharpen is actually a fellow Halfway, OR resident and friend.  Last week she sent some plums, Asian pears and preserves to the market with my daughter.  I had delivered the knife and scissors to her house/husband the day before and he gave me two more knives to sharpen.  Yesterday, before my daughter and I departed for Market, they came by and dropped off another knife and scissors, saying I'd done such a good job on the first, she wanted all of hers sharpened.  I had the other two knives ready and she also left happy, so I guess the day wasn't a total bust. 

Rick
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: stevebot on September 06, 2018, 04:54:02 pm
The yellow handled knife is a lettuce knife.  Wait until you see a celery knife! It starts life as a 12" butcher knife, 2" of the tip is cut off and welded back at 90 deg, plus a 15 deg tilt.
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: RickKrung on September 20, 2018, 08:00:46 am
Today was my fourth time at my daughter's Farmers Market and this was THE big event, where the Market changed location, had a band, a salsa competition and a taco feed.  They also recruited quite a few more vendors.  By comparison to the three previous week's Markets, this one was a smashing success. It took place at a new permanent location for them, a closed off half-block between the two major drags in downtown Baker City, OR.  They also advertised in the local newspaper, as did I separately for my knife sharpening. 

I sharpened 17 knives in 5 hours, 17.6 min. per knife.  That doesn't sound so good, but I feel really good about it.  ALL required re-establishing a basic bevel before actually sharpening them.  For that bevel creation, I used the 8" Norton 3X 80 grit grindstone that I got from Ken S.  That is what took so long, but that wasn't helped by having to change out knives between the knife jigs so much.  I have three jigs but I'm feeling like I need a couple more. 

I encountered my first knife that was thick enough that using the stock knife jig resulted in uneven bevels where I had to switch the knife back and forth in the jig to grind each side uniformly.  That was a pain and it made me wish I'd machined at least one jig for wider blades. 

Twelve of the knives were from a restaurant located a half a block away from the Market and they were lying in wait.  The Market had not even opened yet and one of the owners brings a box with these twelve chef's knives loose on the bottom.  One was of Damascus steel and that and one other he wanted sharpened at 12º and the others at 16º. 

All knives were sharpened to push cut telephone book paper.  The only one I measured, a pocket knife, was at 164 BESS.  The sharpening steps for most was first the Norton 3X, then the SB stone and leather wheel honing.  For the two at 12º I ran them over all three diamond wheels before leather wheel honing.  I did bring home a folding knife that has a large part of the tip missing which will take a lot of grinding off the back to get a new tip. 

A very good day.  I'm ready for setting up a belt sander to make faster work of re-establishing those bevels and the larger repairs. 

Rick
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: Jan on September 20, 2018, 10:51:30 am
Rick, I like to read about your success on the Farmers Market!  :)

I have a question, the 8" Norton 3X 80 grit grindstone was mounted on Tormek and water cooled?

Jan
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: RickKrung on September 20, 2018, 05:16:57 pm
.
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: RickKrung on September 20, 2018, 05:19:20 pm
Rick, I like to read about your success on the Farmers Market!  :)

I have a question, the 8" Norton 3X 80 grit grindstone was mounted on Tormek and water cooled?

Jan

Thanks, Jan.  The Markets have been more fun than I thought.  Still, my primary objective has been achieved and now I get to decide how much more Market work I want to do.  It has provided a couple of good learnings for me, one about how to get the primary bevels faster and the other about being able to get knives sharp fast using coarser grinds and just the leather honing wheel. 

I know I am still a novice and learning all the time, but I also have learned that I'm a decent sharpener when I give people knives sharper than they have ever seen on knives before.  That goes for many who think they know how to sharpen using more conventional methods and many of them say they cannot really get their blades sharpened right.  The restaurant guy that brought the twelve knives said afterwards that he has never seen knives sharpened so well and compared my work with sharpening to that of Chris Reeve, a well know custom knife maker in Idaho, USA (https://chrisreeve.com/ (https://chrisreeve.com/)). 

Yes, on the Norton 3X wheel.  I received two from Ken S. long before I got the diamond wheels.  Ken wasn't using them and offered them to me as a means for doing the rougher grinding, in lieu of the diamond wheels.  They are 1" arbor so I machined SS bushings to fit the 12mm Tormek shaft.  Unfortunately, one of the bushings turns out wasn't SS and it rusts enough that it is a pain trying to get it on the shaft so I don't use it (46 grit).  The other, I thought would go by the wayside once I got the coarse diamond wheel, but I have found the diamond wheel doesn't cut fast enough (or I am just too chicken to use it more aggressively, given Tormek's admonition to use only "very light pressure"). 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2577)

I machined a couple of flanges for mounting on the Tormek and take up the additional shaft space. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2573)

Mounts on the Tormek like any other wheel, just a lot smaller diameter. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2575)

And trued them using the Truing Tool. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2579)



At this last Market, I used the 80 grit and ran though all twelve of those knives first, changing out knives in jigs until they were all done.  Then switched to the SB stone and then the leather wheel.  All of work with the latter two was done in the last half-hour in fading light as the Market closed, showing that sharpening can go very quickly if there is a decent bevel to start with. 

Using such a coarse grindstone works well, but it still has that extra wheel change, which I am in the search of a way of avoiding.  My next effort will be in getting a variable speed motor for my 1x30" belt grinder and if that works I may spring for a Viel from SteveB.

If I were to continue seriously with the Norton 3X type grindstone on the Tormek, I would try to find a comparable 2" wide by 10" dia. grindstone.  I've looked at them online but cannot tell which ones would are comparable, so have not bought anything.  That would require machining a much larger bushing as they have up to 2" arbor holes.

For those not interested in or not willing to afford the coarse diamond wheel, the Norton 3X type grindstone is a really good option which I am glad to have in my arsenal.  It made the day for me at this Market and will be there with me when I do more. 

Rick
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: cbwx34 on September 20, 2018, 05:30:04 pm
I tried to read your earlier post, but can't seem to get past "taco feed".  :P ;)

Congrats... glad it's working out! :)

Maybe show a before/after of your tip repair?  I'm sure people will be interested in how you go about it.
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: RickKrung on September 20, 2018, 05:40:30 pm
I tried to read your earlier post, but can't seem to get past "taco feed".  :P ;)

Congrats... glad it's working out! :)

Maybe show a before/after of your tip repair?  I'm sure people will be interested in how you go about it.

Not sure.  Try again.  I edited it.  Maybe it works now. 

I'll do that with the before/after.  I repaired tips on a several of the knives yesterday but no time to take photos. 

The folding knife with the broken tip turns out to be almost exactly like the Kershaw I got from you, CB, except for the serrated portion. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2581)

Should serve as a nice guide for the repair.  I talked with the owner about bringing the back/spine down to meet the bevel rather than bringing the bevel up to meet the spine.  I am thinking now, looking at both that a bit of both may be the better approach. 

Rick
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: cbwx34 on September 20, 2018, 06:26:25 pm
...
I talked with the owner about bringing the back/spine down to meet the bevel rather than bringing the bevel up to meet the spine.  I am thinking now, looking at both that a bit of both may be the better approach. 

Rick

Never hurts to draw on it what the end result will look like.  You probably already know this, but make sure the tip doesn't stick out above the handle when closed... one reason I suggest at least some removal from the spine side.

Here's an old picture of a knife tip I added to a Kershaw "safety knife"... working both sides of the blade...

(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2583)

Thanks!

Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: Fernando on September 20, 2018, 07:03:10 pm
...
I talked with the owner about bringing the back/spine down to meet the bevel rather than bringing the bevel up to meet the spine.  I am thinking now, looking at both that a bit of both may be the better approach. 

Rick

Never hurts to draw on it what the end result will look like.  You probably already know this, but make sure the tip doesn't stick out above the handle when closed... one reason I suggest at least some removal from the spine side.

Here's an old picture of a knife tip I added to a Kershaw "safety knife"... working both sides of the blade...

(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2583)

Thanks!

I totally agree with you cbwx34, it is better to remove material from the spine, so that when the leaf closes it does not protrude and is dangerous, then there is no way to reverse it, and I have already seen it before, remove matrerial from the edge to find the spine, change a lot the silhouette of the blade, and the point of the knife protrudes.
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: cbwx34 on September 21, 2018, 03:37:36 pm
...
I totally agree with you cbwx34, it is better to remove material from the spine, so that when the leaf closes it does not protrude and is dangerous, then there is no way to reverse it, and I have already seen it before, remove matrerial from the edge to find the spine, change a lot the silhouette of the blade, and the point of the knife protrudes.

Thanks!
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: RickKrung on September 23, 2018, 03:46:44 am
Here is what I proposed to the owner.  He thought it looked good.  I checked with the knife closed and the spine at the broken tip does not protrude out of the pocket.   
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2587)

Rick
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: Ken S on September 23, 2018, 04:34:06 am
My original inspiration for the 3X wheels was a long forgotten post where the member mentioned using a "cheap" grinding wheel on his Tormek with good results. He never posted again. I thought that if a cheap wheel worked, how would a good wheel like the 3X work? I already had a 46 grit 3X wheel on my six inch grinder. It cuts like a trooper. It would not work with my T7; the wheel was too far from the water.

When I got my T4, I tried the six inch 3X with it. A six inch wheel on an eight inch Tormek is not ideal, however, the wheel reached the water. I used a bolt to test the cutting. It worked really well! I purchased the 3X eight inch wheels in eighty and soon after forty six grit. Both work very well on the T4. They work as well as any grinding wheel worn to eight inches on the T7/8. Either one will do; you really don't need both grits. Especially the 46 grit wheel can serve as the coarse wheel Tormek has not made.

The 3X wheels are not as convenient to use as the Tormek diamond wheels or CBN. I used them wet with the Tormek, cool and dust free. At fifty dollars US for either one, I think they are a viable inexpensive option for anyone who reshapes a turning tool only occasionally.

I rarely need to do that much coarse grinding. Rick was getting into heavy duty drill bit sharpening, so I passed them along to him. An 80 grit 3X mounted on a T4 would save a wheel change. The T4 weighs half the weight of a T8 and costs less. The T4 would also serve as an emergency backup in the most unlikely event that anything happened to the T8.

Ken
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: cbwx34 on September 23, 2018, 01:33:37 pm
Here is what I proposed to the owner.  He thought it looked good.  I checked with the knife closed and the spine at the broken tip does not protrude out of the pocket.   
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2587)

Rick

Looks good!👍🏻
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: RickKrung on September 23, 2018, 07:39:16 pm
I sharpened knives for the second time at the Farmers Market in my home town, Halfway, OR, yesterday.  Another fine day.  Did two kitchen and two filet knives at the market, all using the 80 grit Norton 3X, SB, SG and leather wheel honing.  Sharpness ranged from 119-206 BESS, ave. 150 and only slightly improved with the Sharp Pad, range 112-161, ave. 135 BESS.  I feel like I'm developing a groove for using the SB/SG/LW combination and am actually finding that the Sharp Pad definitely is not necessarily needed.

I also "dealt with" two serrated knives for the first time.  I say dealt with because I do not have diamond hones yet (on order) for actually sharpening them (https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/DMT-Diafold-Serrated-Knife-Sharpener-P14.aspx (https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/DMT-Diafold-Serrated-Knife-Sharpener-P14.aspx)).  I really just did some removal of major burrs using a very fine file and some round stones from my father's toolbox.
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2589)

I had a yard sale Fri. and Sat. and did pretty well.  NO CLOTHES!  It was really a Guy sort of event.  Tools, hardware, camping gear, etc.  To the point, a local guy I know is getting ready to go hunting and brought by a couple of his knives for sharpening.  Both appear to be well suited for skinning.  One I found very curious with its exaggerated curvature. It was actually a trick getting it all the way around.  I tried using my Pin Pivot Collar but that didn't really get all the way.  I used a platform/freehand and even that was a trick. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2591)

The shape of the the other, a bit more of a classic hunting knife, shows up in a search for "skinning knives".  This one sharpened to 98 BESS with just the SB/SG/LW combination.  I did not want to touch it with the Sharp Pad. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2593)

Rick

Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: RickKrung on September 24, 2018, 05:56:56 am
The Kershaw tip repair.  When I got to the point of putting a bevel on the new tip edge, I thought it was a perfect case for the Pin Pivot Collar. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2605)

(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2607)

But in practice, it didn't turn out as true as it looked.  I didn't like the bevel angle at the tip, so finished the tip bevel by lifting more than pivoting. 

Here is what I proposed to the owner.  He thought it looked good.  I checked with the knife closed and the spine at the broken tip does not protrude out of the pocket.   
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2587)

Rick

The repaired tip.  Turned out quite good for the most part.  I think there could be a bit more of a fair curve to the spine coming down to the point, but, what the hey, I think the owner will be quite happy. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2609)

I ran it through all three diamond wheels and the SJ stone, then honed and Sharp Pad-ed.  I fought with it a little, but finished with light honing on the leather wheel for 128 BESS. 

Rick
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: Jan on September 24, 2018, 09:46:23 am
Rick, thanks for sharing your successful tip repair story.  :)

I my thinking the most important is that the newly shaped tip of the blade reliably fits inside the handle.

Jan
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: cbwx34 on September 24, 2018, 03:09:17 pm
...
The repaired tip.  Turned out quite good for the most part.  I think there could be a bit more of a fair curve to the spine coming down to the point, but, what the hey, I think the owner will be quite happy. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2609)
...
Rick

Looks great to me!  👍👍😎
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: RickKrung on September 24, 2018, 03:12:06 pm
Rick, thanks for sharing your successful tip repair story.  :)

I my thinking the most important is that the newly shaped tip of the blade reliably fits inside the handle.

Jan

Agreed!  It does, by 2.8mm.

Rick

(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2611)
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: RickKrung on September 24, 2018, 03:50:40 pm
Got me looking more closely at the tip.  The bevels are more uneven than I am willing to send out of my shop.  I knew they weren't completely even, but I had not looked closely at the profile of the tip.  Further examination shows that the unevenness runs the length of the bevels.  I think easy enough to fix, just will take a little more time. 

Rick

(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2613)
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: Jan on September 24, 2018, 05:03:35 pm
The idiom, "God is in the detail" evolved in a proverb "The devil is in the detail", but the meaning remained the same - details are important.  ;)

Jan

Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: RichColvin on September 24, 2018, 11:13:48 pm
And I believe a true craftsman cares more about the details than the average person.  As a machinist, you probably see those details more than most.

Kind regards,
Rich
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: RickKrung on September 24, 2018, 11:21:08 pm
Started dealing with the uneven bevel, but first I wanted to see if I could determine if the angles were the same.  I don't have a good means of measuring angles with a mechanical instrument, just the CATRA Optical Protractor.  The bevel angles, although uneven are the same angle.  The clamps were to hold it so the tip of the blade was a couple MM way from the laser beam. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2617)

(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2613)

So, I proceeded to even them out, starting with the DC, followed by the DF and DE diamond wheels.  I did not this time use the SJ stone.  I like much better how it turned out.
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2619)

Rick
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: Jan on September 25, 2018, 10:32:09 am
Well done, Rick, congrats!  :)

Jan
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: RickKrung on September 27, 2018, 06:58:09 pm
Well done, Rick, congrats!  :)

Jan

Not surprisingly, the owner was thrilled.  Even used some expletives joyfully.   ;D

Rick
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: RickKrung on September 30, 2018, 05:27:31 am
I had another nice day sharpening edges today at the local, Halfway Farmer's Market.  Thought I'd share some photos of my setup.  Not long ago, I was complaining of spillage of the ACC laced water when using the diamond wheels.  I have tried and am using a bit of alum. foil over the T8 case to the left of the wheels to help catch the dribbles there, but that didn't solve the problem.  Today, I abandoned the rotating base in favor of a cafeteria tray, which catches ALL of the spilled water.  I like it a lot better.  I never rotate my machine anyway, so the rotating base was useless and certainly didn't capture the spillage. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2641)

Other photos are of the work arrangement and then of the whole booth.
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2643)

(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2645)



Rick
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: RickKrung on September 30, 2018, 05:32:43 am
Bringing the cafeteria tray home and setting it up at my home shop sharpening station.  It totally captures all the spillage and I pour it off into jars and filter it using a coffee filter, which can be seen in the upper right corner.
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2647)

Rick 
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: Fernando on October 03, 2018, 09:42:11 pm
Bringing the cafeteria tray home and setting it up at my home shop sharpening station.  It totally captures all the spillage and I pour it off into jars and filter it using a coffee filter, which can be seen in the upper right corner.
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2647)

Rick

This is the kind of things I like to see, thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: RickKrung on October 19, 2018, 04:42:00 am
Finished with the last market for the local one in my town last Sat.  Both markets are really slowing down.  Not a single customer.

Finished the second to last market in the bigger town, one hour a way yesterday.  The market is slowing down but I have decent traffic.  The owner of the restaurant who has sent his staff's knives over three weeks running brought in his own personal Japanese knives for me to sharpen.

Kamikoto  Bevel only on one side, supposed to be 15º on that one side. 
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3725.0;attach=2793)

I examined both sides with my 60X hand microscope.  Nothing much to note about the bevel side, but it was very obvious that both sides had been "steeled", perhaps a lot.  There was a well developed "bevel" on what should have been the flat side.  It was the owner's helper (the one who had brought all the knives previously, as well as his own personal knives) and I pointed out the steeled bevel on that side and said it would take a lot of grinding to get rid of it, probably more than the owner wanted. 

I put the 15º on the beveled side and did enough grinding to get a burr off the flat side (but not enough to get rid of the steeled bevel).  Honed them and they push cut phone book paper well.  When the owner showed up to pick them up, I had him look at the steeled bevel on the flat side.  Said "Guess I shouldn't do that". 

Edit: When I set up my T8 for the 15º, I wanted it to be really accurate, so I used my recent discovery of using digital calipers (https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=2962.msg25025#msg25025) to set the USB height, thanks to Wootz.  I did check it with the HanJigs that I made for 14º and 16º and it fell right between the two.

$10 for the sharpening and he tipped me $10. 

Only one more week to go.  I enjoyed not having brought anything home to work on Sat. and yesterday.  It has been interesting, very educational and fun at times. 

Rick
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: Ken S on October 19, 2018, 12:18:48 pm
Rick,

Growing up in the 50s and 60s, my family enjoyed travelogues. They took us to places we had never visited. Your farmers market posts have been an adventure for us. This is even more valuable for because you have taken us through the learning steps of beginning. You have done this not as a writer, but as the "in the trenches" sharpener, an invaluable program.

You are sharing your machinist background and your thirst for learning. Looking at the forum stats, we have many more guests than active members. I am convinced that many of these guests are people considering investing in a Tormek, wanting to learn more than the short marketing you tubes showng how easy sharpening can be. You are part of a small group of forum regulars who share what can be done with a Tormek in the hands of a dedicated craftsman willing to learn and grow.

Keep up the good work. It is helping us all grow.

Ken
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: RickKrung on October 19, 2018, 02:16:05 pm
Thanks, Ken.  It has been an adventure for me too.  Yes, sharpening using the Tormek has certainly been feeding my thirst for learning.  14 months ago "I know nuthing" and now I do know a little bit but am still amazed at how much more there is to learn.

Rick
Title: Re: First Farmer's Market
Post by: Ken S on October 19, 2018, 02:49:52 pm
Rick,

It is amazing what "knowing a little bit" while realizing that there is more to learn can do for you, Like the rest of us, keep learning!

Ken