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In the Shop => General Tormek Questions => Topic started by: Sharpco on March 04, 2019, 04:42:24 am

Title: Price of ACC-150
Post by: Sharpco on March 04, 2019, 04:42:24 am
With my 10"(254.2mm) CBN wheel, T-8 needs 350~500ml of water and 13~19ml of ACC-150.

The amazon price of ACC-150(300ml) is 49.95 USD.

13ml/300ml = 23.08  >>> 23.08 / 49.95 USD = 2.16 USD
19ml/300ml= 15.79   >>> 15.79 / 49.95 USD = 3.16 USD

So, we have to pay 2~3 USD each time.
Title: Re: Price of ACC-150
Post by: Ken S on March 04, 2019, 05:15:06 am
I must disagree with two aspects of your price calculations:

First, only 125ml of fluid (I use 125ml of water and 5ml of ACC.) is necessary when using the circumference of the wheel with the T8. Unlike the Original grinding wheels, the diamond wheels do not absorb water. Incidentally, the T7 water trough requires 200ml water plus 8ml of ACC. The T4 requires 75ml water plus 3ml of water.

If you need to use the side of a diamond wheel for flat grinding, you will need more water and ACC. The first time I tried this, I filled the trough to the edge of the side abrasive. I had much spillage; you only need to fill part way. Fill gradually until you reach an optimal amount.

I generally save my diluted ACC water. I siphon the clear liquid out with a turkey baster and place it if a plastic peanut butter jar, which I seal with the lid. I remove the captured grindings and clean the trough with a paper towel. This keeps my drain pipes clean. The solution can be reused several times. Tormek has not stated any usable life data. As I think ACC may help keep my Original grinding wheels cleaner, after recycling with diamond wheels, I plan to have a final recycle with the Original wheel.

As you are a professional sharpener grinding a much higher number of knives than I do, you may wish to use a smaller number or solution recycles. In your case, I would calculate the amount and cost of the ACC you use and divide that into the revenue you project from the number of knives you sharpen, including an efficiency factor if using the diamond wheels lowers your time per sharpened knife.

Ken
Title: Re: Price of ACC-150
Post by: Sharpco on March 04, 2019, 06:09:48 am
Ken.

I checked it again.

First, I lifted the trough as much as possible.(4 times) and put only minimal water. Check my image. The water bottle initially had 1L of water.

And I think we should consider the amount of water lost outside the trough. I can always see it on the RB-180.

So, I think the minimum amount of water for using ACC-150 is 200ml + @.


I like your idea of reusing the ACC-150.
Title: Conserving/ReUsing ACC
Post by: RickKrung on March 04, 2019, 09:18:48 am
I do not like how much the ACC costs either.  I think I am less inclined to use the diamond wheels as a result, subconsciously at least.  Two ways that I try to conserve and reuse the mixed ACC/water solution:

1) To capture water spilled outside the machine is a fiberglass cafeteria tray.  It isn't as large (14"x18") as the Tormek Rubber Mat (13.5"x21") but it is a whole lot cheaper.  I no longer use the Rotating Base, primarily because I don't rotate the machine, I do all the work from the front, but it interferes with solution recovery too.  When enough ACC/water has spilled, and it is ALOT, I lift the machine off the tray and pour the water back in the trough. 

2) I filter used ACC/water through coffee filters, using the Melita style paper cone filters in the plastic cones.  I pour the used ACC/water into a recycled sour cream or cottage cheese container for short term storage and ease of pouring it into the coffee filter.  Filtered ACC/water is stored in a wide-mouth, plastic Mason-type jar.  I'm able to recover 50% or so of what I started with and reuse it for a week or two, replenishing with fresh solution as needed to maintain the level in the trough.  I've let used solution sit for longer, but sometimes it seems like stuff is growing in there, so I toss it when it starts to look alive. 

Both are visible in the photo, tray under the machine and coffee filter in the upper right corner.

(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3906.0;attach=3082)

Also visible in the upper right corner is the 500cc Nalgene bottle I use for mixing and storing fresh ACC/water and the 50cc graduated cylinder that I use to measure out the amount of ACC needed when mixing it up into the Nalgene bottle.  Used/filtered solution never goes into the Nalgene bottle.

Rick
Title: Re: Price of ACC-150
Post by: Ken S on March 04, 2019, 10:18:49 am
We may be using different methods of filling the water trough. With the motor running, I gradually add water in the trough until I can see it running over the top of the grinding wheel. This is the same way I fill the trough using the Original grinding wheels. The difference is that the original wheels absorb some water, and I have to add some gradually until the stone no longer absorbs water. Diamond and CBN wheels do not absorb, therefore, once the water starts to flow over the wheel, that is enough. I do not pay any attention to fill lines in the trough; the water flowing over the wheel is the indicator.

I have found that this method uses less water and dramatically reduces the amount of spilled water. The other technique which reduces spill is using the turkey baster. I usually have a very small amount of spill, perhaps ten to twenty drops. I use the Tormek Rubber Mat. It is luxurious, although not inexpensive. I like Rick's lipped tray idea, and could happily work with it. With such a tray, I would probably not bother with the rotating base.

Using this fill method, I need 125ml with the T8; 200ml with the T7; and 75ml with the T4. The lesser amount with the T8 is due to the rounded bottom design of the trough which more closely hugs the wheel and the lift, which raises the trough closer to the wheel. These quantities are only for grinding with the edge of the wheel. I do not yet use the side of the wheel. This may change if I decide to change to flat grinding turning skew chisels and possibly other operations. For most operations, I see no need for flat grinding.

Using Sharpco's cost figures ($49.95 for 300 ml), I arrive at $.1665 per ml. Let's be sloppy in our math, and round that to $.17. That works out to $.85 for 3ml (125 ml water) or $1.36 for 8ml (200ml water). Divide that cost into the revenue generated by the knives sharpened. For easy math, let's choose a very slow day and only $100 income. That makes the cost of the ACC used around 1% of the revenue. Reusing it would lower that cost.

In the future, I will certainly stock up on ACC at woodworking shows with the typical unadvertised 20% discount.

Ken
Title: Re: Price of ACC-150
Post by: Sharpco on March 04, 2019, 10:20:15 am
Rick.

I like your idea of Nalgene bottle & graduated cylinder. How do you put the ACC-150 to graduated cylinder? Do you use a Baster or a Spoid?
Title: Re: Price of ACC-150
Post by: Ken S on March 04, 2019, 02:25:02 pm
Sharpco,

Check ebay. I found two reputable Tormek dealers listing the same ACC -150 package for $39.95 with free shipping.

Ken
Title: Re: Price of ACC-150
Post by: RickKrung on March 04, 2019, 04:02:24 pm
Rick.

I like your idea of Nalgene bottle & graduated cylinder. How do you put the ACC-150 to graduated cylinder? Do you use a Baster or a Spoid?

To get the ACC from the bottle to the graduated cylinder, I simply pour it in - very carefully and slowly.  Width of the graduated cylinder is about 0.890" (22.6mm), which is close to that of the ACC bottle, so pouring it is fairly easy.  The distance between 1ml graduation lines is about 0.10" (2.6mm) so it isn't hard to be relatively accurate.  Of course, my training and experience as a biologist, having taken analytical chemistry in college and actually use graduated cylinders and the like in my work life affords me some muscle memory that helps.  This graduated cylinder is left over from my black and white darkroom supplies. 

As for the rotating base, if I worked from both sides of the machine and rotated it, I would probably still be using the RB.  I'd just be tipping it up to drain the spilled ACC/water solution from it into the cafeteria tray when salvaging the solution.  I don't use it because I don't rotate the machine to work from the rear of it. 

The rubber mat looks like it could serve nearly the same function as my tray, except, if it is floppy rather than rigid like my tray, it may be cumbersome or awkward to get the solution from the mat to the sour cream container.  The only issue I've had with the tray is that is tends to move/shift in use.  I think if I put a sheet of rubber underneath it, it would help keep it from moving.  This has not been enough of an issue for me to actually do that and I even have an ample supply of 1/16" rubber sheet that I have from making skirts for protecting my machine tool ways from metal chips. 

Rick
Title: Re: Price of ACC-150
Post by: Sharpco on March 04, 2019, 07:19:56 pm
Check ebay. I found two reputable Tormek dealers listing the same ACC -150 package for $39.95 with free shipping.
Thank you Ken, but I can't find it. Could you send me links?
Title: Re: Price of ACC-150
Post by: Sharpco on March 04, 2019, 07:25:08 pm
To get the ACC from the bottle to the graduated cylinder, I simply pour it in - very carefully and slowly.  Width of the graduated cylinder is about 0.890" (22.6mm), which is close to that of the ACC bottle, so pouring it is fairly easy.  The distance between 1ml graduation lines is about 0.10" (2.6mm) so it isn't hard to be relatively accurate.  Of course, my training and experience as a biologist, having taken analytical chemistry in college and actually use graduated cylinders and the like in my work life affords me some muscle memory that helps.  This graduated cylinder is left over from my black and white darkroom supplies. 

As for the rotating base, if I worked from both sides of the machine and rotated it, I would probably still be using the RB.  I'd just be tipping it up to drain the spilled ACC/water solution from it into the cafeteria tray when salvaging the solution.  I don't use it because I don't rotate the machine to work from the rear of it. 

The rubber mat looks like it could serve nearly the same function as my tray, except, if it is floppy rather than rigid like my tray, it may be cumbersome or awkward to get the solution from the mat to the sour cream container.  The only issue I've had with the tray is that is tends to move/shift in use.  I think if I put a sheet of rubber underneath it, it would help keep it from moving.  This has not been enough of an issue for me to actually do that and I even have an ample supply of 1/16" rubber sheet that I have from making skirts for protecting my machine tool ways from metal chips. 

Thanks Rick :)
Title: Re: Price of ACC-150
Post by: john.jcb on March 04, 2019, 10:48:01 pm
Sharpco try these links. I am not sure if they ship free to Korea, however.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/TORMEK-ACC-150-ANTI-CORROSION-CONCENTRATE-2-PK/273558317982?hash=item3fb158ab9e:g:HEMAAOSw41Jb6vuk:rk:1:pf:1&frcectupt=true

https://www.ebay.com/itm/TORMEK-ACC-150-Anti-Corrosion-Water-Additive/223091557124?hash=item33f14b0304:g:P98AAOSwuMNbaKuR:rk:2:pf:1&frcectupt=true

I have purchased from the second link's vendor delawarewolf132 and my items arrived faster than expected and in perfect shape.
Title: Re: Price of ACC-150
Post by: Ken S on March 04, 2019, 11:00:32 pm
I can vouch for Hartville Hardware. I have been a very satisfied customer there fir more than forty five years.

I believe "Delaware Wolf” is Wolfgang Derke, the President of Advanced Machinery in New Castle, Delaware. I think Delaware Wolf is Advanced's ebay channel. Jeff Farris directed me to Advanced when I needed to replace my stolen T7. I did not need to duplicate all the accessories; Hans Derke was very accommodating. I have had very good service with several orders since then.

Ken
Title: Re: Price of ACC-150
Post by: john.jcb on March 04, 2019, 11:07:32 pm
Yes Delaware Wolf is Advanced Machinery.
Title: Re: Price of ACC-150
Post by: Sharpco on March 05, 2019, 12:25:17 am
Sharpco try these links. I am not sure if they ship free to Korea, however.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/TORMEK-ACC-150-ANTI-CORROSION-CONCENTRATE-2-PK/273558317982?hash=item3fb158ab9e:g:HEMAAOSw41Jb6vuk:rk:1:pf:1&frcectupt=true

https://www.ebay.com/itm/TORMEK-ACC-150-Anti-Corrosion-Water-Additive/223091557124?hash=item33f14b0304:g:P98AAOSwuMNbaKuR:rk:2:pf:1&frcectupt=true

I have purchased from the second link's vendor delawarewolf132 and my items arrived faster than expected and in perfect shape.

Thank you so much john.
Title: Re: Price of ACC-150
Post by: Hatchcanyon on March 05, 2019, 03:15:12 pm
My personal feelings about ACC-150 are not very positive but lets look at the facts first:

The Security Data Sheet declares the product as a solution of Dodecanedioic Acid at >1 <10% concentration. This means one Liter of the ACC - fluid holds in between 10 to 100 grams of the acid which comes as a powder.

The chemical itself is a common one which can be easily buyed at chemical dealers (Merck for example). I got prices of about $70 for 100 grams or about $280 for a 500 gram package.

Considering a medial conecntration of 5% one can manufacture 2 Liters for $ 70 (resp. 10 Liters for $ 280). That means approximately 4.5 to 6 $ for a bottle. (Considering the minimum specified concentration of > 1% makes it much cheaper!)

I suppose Tormek gets much better conditions buying in larger quantities.

Do I have made an error? If not the price for the ACC-150 seems to me more like a robbery than a fair deal.

Just my five cents!
Title: Re: Price of ACC-150
Post by: wootz on March 06, 2019, 10:31:50 am
Our customer from Austria, a professional sharpener Fritz "Messerschleiferei-Amstetten", has been using an alternative "solution" for wet grinding on Tormek for years

(http://knifegrinders.com.au/photos/Fritz.jpg)

Fritz has a couple of YouTube videos sparkling with good humour e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtNiLm4lGYE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtNiLm4lGYE)
 :D
You can tell by number of jigs and wheels on his bench that this man is not kidding when it comes to sharpening, Fritz uses in his sharpening business Tormek T3, T4 and T8, and recently added our software and FVB.
Title: Re: Price of ACC-150
Post by: Ken S on March 06, 2019, 01:08:18 pm
My personal feelings about ACC-150 are not very positive but lets look at the facts first:

The Security Data Sheet declares the product as a solution of Dodecanedioic Acid at >1 <10% concentration. This means one Liter of the ACC - fluid holds in between 10 to 100 grams of the acid which comes as a powder.

The chemical itself is a common one which can be easily buyed at chemical dealers (Merck for example). I got prices of about $70 for 100 grams or about $280 for a 500 gram package.

Considering a medial conecntration of 5% one can manufacture 2 Liters for $ 70 (resp. 10 Liters for $ 280). That means approximately 4.5 to 6 $ for a bottle. (Considering the minimum specified concentration of > 1% makes it much cheaper!)

I suppose Tormek gets much better conditions buying in larger quantities.

Do I have made an error? If not the price for the ACC-150 seems to me more like a robbery than a fair deal.

Just my five cents!

Rolf (Hatchcanyon),

I see your point about the potential for large savings from buying chemicals in bulk and mixing your own from scratch. I did this for years in my photographic darkroom.

My father was my first photography teacher. Dad was a very skilled photographer and a thrifty person. In an era when most home darkroom users purchased packaged dry developers, mixed up quart or gallon solutions and then reused them guessing how to compensate with replenishers, Dad weighed out individual dry chemicals and mixed his own developers. His developers were always fresh, always consistent, and very inexpensive.

We can do that with many things. A pound container of ascorbic acid crystals (vitamin C) is very inexpensive and lasts a very long time. So is a large can of grease used to relubricate the Tormek during the annual inspection and greasing. Mixing one's own ACC from dry chemicals probably makes excellent sense for our members who allegedly sharpen for thousands of hours. If I was a farmers market sharpener, I would definitely look into it.

For the typical Tormek sharpener, the convenience of already prepared ACC in small bottles may be more desirable than the potential cost savings of bulk purchase. I think we should take a realistic look at the volume of sharpening we actually do and compare the pros and cons of all options.

Ken

When I started testing CBN wheels, neither Tormek diamond wheels nor ACC were available. I used Honerite Gold, which also works well. It is comparably priced with Tormek ACC.
Title: Re: Price of ACC-150
Post by: wderke on March 06, 2019, 08:13:58 pm
So you are correct, delawarewolf132 on eBay is Advanced Machinery. The Advanced Machinery site price is also $39.95, which is the Tormek MAP price. The Amazon price of $49.95 is also our listing, as no one else has bothered to list either the fluid, Diamond Wheels or Multi Base on Amazon, and I would like to tell all of you that whenever we can, we increase the price on Amazon in order to ameliorate the substantial selling fees and return policies which Amazon dictates to us. You will always find the best price on the Advanced Machinery site.
Title: Re: Price of ACC-150
Post by: Hatchcanyon on March 06, 2019, 08:53:14 pm

I see your point about the potential for large savings from buying chemicals in bulk and mixing your own from scratch. I did this for years in my photographic darkroom.

Sorry that is not exactly my point.

It is more about such a large difference between prime cost and selling price. Someone could offer something equal to ACC 150 for a third of Tormeks price and still make a reasonable profit.

My opinion: ACC 150 is totally overpriced. Simply unfair to Tormek customers.

Rolf
Title: Re: Price of ACC-150
Post by: wootz on March 06, 2019, 10:27:53 pm
Rolf, personally I'd feel uncomfortable criticizing Tormek pricing on the Tormek-owned forum. There are so many costs adding to the production cost, from packing and transportation to marketing and advertising and all the overheads in-between, plus the wholesale importer and retailer margin, let alone taxes in Sweden and the consumer  country.
Title: Re: Price of ACC-150
Post by: john.jcb on March 06, 2019, 11:34:46 pm
I also wonder how long it takes to sell the equivalent of 1 55 gal drum of ACC-150.

When you are in business and pay taxes they also ding you for your inventory. While the price is a bit high considering the raw chemical cost it is similar to many other things currently on the market. I once thought buying duct tape in bulk was the way to go. I am, after almost 30 years on my last roll. I must say Mil-Spec tape was made to last.
Title: Re: Price of ACC-150
Post by: Ken S on March 07, 2019, 01:41:14 am
Rolf,

Like Wootz, I have felt uncomfortable criticizing Tormek's pricing on this Tormek provided forum. As forum moderator, I will leave this topic in place, but hope we can move on to other topics.

Ken
Title: Re: Price of ACC-150
Post by: jeffs55 on March 08, 2019, 12:21:27 pm
I do not know what ACC 150 is as I do not use it. I do see criticism of its price which most folks seem to think is exorbitant. It is the same set up as printer ink. I thought printer ink was the most expensive item on earth. Has anyone done the math on its cost per gallon? Isn't it something like a million dollars? Just kidding on that but it ain't cheap. These days I go for made in China generic ink but don't know if there is a better/cheaper option for the ACC stuff. You might consider whether or not you are ADD over ACC and whether or not it is even necessary. I see that ACC is an anti corrosive. What are you trying to prevent corrosion on? Why wouldn't anti freeze work? Since the stone is not a stone but a metal disk, you don't have the same issues.
Title: Re: Price of ACC-150
Post by: Ken S on March 08, 2019, 05:02:41 pm
Jeff,

I look at ACC the same way I view insurance. With each of the three diamond wheels costing from $300 to $350 US, we are looking at an investment of $300 to $1000. We have insurance policies to protect us from risk from house damage, auto damage, illness, death, etc. Once we decide to invest in diamond grinding wheels, ACC helps to protect us from the risk of premature failure.

Part of what makes ACC look expensive is that we have been using plain water for decades. We still have that option with the Original grinding wheels. For most of us, the Original SG wheel and water is all that we will ever need. However, many of us want speed. This makes sense for a busy professional sharpener. For someone like me, who may have three knives to sharpen, the need for speed does not seem so critical.

I like having the choice.

Ken