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In the Shop => Hand Tool Woodworking => Topic started by: dusmif on June 13, 2019, 06:29:02 pm

Title: My first test with a chisel
Post by: dusmif on June 13, 2019, 06:29:02 pm
Hi, this morning I tried  to sharpen my first chisel as a test to get some training.
I noticed that during my sharpening the bevel was having a round pattern, which got bigger as I kept sharpening. I had the impresion the the sharpening pattern should be even all over the bevel.
Now, am I doing something wrong, should I do any setting to the jig, or this normal? The chisel was 90 deg withe jig, that I checked.
Another question that might be relevant to this, should the tormek be 100% horizontal, because mine the level buble is touching the right line of the center indicater.( from Left to Right )
I hope that the photo is good enough to show what I am trying to say.
Thank you
Alf.
Title: Re: My first test with a chisel
Post by: Ken S on June 14, 2019, 04:24:38 am
Alf,

Your post creates several questions:

Regarding the levelness of the Tormek: I do not think it is critical. When the ADV (advanced water trough) was introduced for the T7, two magnetic shoes were included. This raised one side of the Tormek to help water drain better into the trough. This also meant that the Tormek was intentionally made out of level. Although our minds like things to be level, I don't think it matters with the Tormek, at least not with knives. The water trough of the T8 does not require these extra shoes.

At first I thought your photo was of the back of the chisel. Now I am thinking it might be of the bevel. Assuming it is of the bevel, your grinding is not complete. You need to grind until the entire bevel is ground and a consistent burr occurs over the entire edge. It looks like you have not ground to the edge. A chisel is not a complex tool, however, sharpening one correctly involves good technique.

Before I started using my Tormek in 2009, I had sharpened numerous bench chisels with oil stones, waterstones, and sandpaper. Flattening and polishing the back can often involve more time and labor than sharpening the bevel. If you take the time and discipline to master sharpening one chisel, multiple chisels are not difficult.

How wide is the chisel you photographed? Narrow chisels are more difficult sharpen. Very wide chisels can be labor intensive. A chisel in the 1/2” to 3/4” range 12 to 19 mm) is a good starting place.

Unlike the knife people on the forum, my first sharpening love is chisels. I hope you enjoy sharpening them, also.

Ken
Title: Re: My first test with a chisel
Post by: Jan on June 14, 2019, 09:23:54 am
Alf, small deviations of the machine from the horizontal position are not very important for grinding operation provided the grind stone cup is immerged in water.

Your picture shows situation which happens when sharpening old or twisted chisels. Next I assume, that before sharpening the bevel you have flatten the back of your chisel. I also assume that your grind stone is true.

Even in the case that you mounted the chisel perpendicularly to the jig margin it can happen that the scratch pattern is not rectangular, which is very annoying. When this deviation is small you can try to apply more pressure or spent more time at the unsharpened spots. When the deviation is larger you have to experiment with the mounting of the chisel into the jig. You slightly rotate the chisel to the right or left and follow the response. Important is, that the resultant edge is perpendicular to the axis of the chisel, the scratch pattern at the heel is not so important.

Good luck!  :)
Jan
Title: Re: My first test with a chisel
Post by: dusmif on June 14, 2019, 10:15:38 am
Thank You Ken, Thank You Jan, for your time to reply.
Jan, this is my first chisel, ( 6.66mm ) because the T8 is brand new and I am trying to find my way how to:Having said that the grind stone is true, I have only used it for 30 min or so, closing the tool rest on the grind stone it seems it is touching flat on the surface. Regarding flatten the back of the chisel, that I forgot to do, >:(  first mistake. Now the reason that I asked about the level of the machine is that it seems, as that the left of the grinstone is not making contact with the tool I am trying to sharpen (photo_Marked red ). Also about the scratch pattern, I am sure what you pointed out is the reason that I was having that pattern, which in that case, I am not so worried about it, I just follow your advice and I should be ok. I made a photo before reading your post to explain better about the pattern, so I might as well post it. Also find the photo of the Grindstone showing the left part of the stone that it seems is not touching the tools.(I think).
Thanks.
Alf.
Title: Re: My first test with a chisel
Post by: Jan on June 14, 2019, 11:21:45 am
Alf, with high probability your new stone is true. When we say true it means on your Tormek with your USB. You can easily check if the stone is true by lowering the USB so that it almost touches the stone and has the same clearance for the whole stone revolution.

After correct mounting of the chisel into the jig you have to sharpen the bevel as described by Ken: You need to grind until the entire bevel is ground and a consistent burr occurs over the entire edge. It looks like you have not ground to the edge. Do not worry when the scratch pattern at the heel is not perfectly rectangular. This often reflects the fact, that geometry of the chisel is not perfect. E.g. the chisel is slightly twisted between the spot where it is clamped and the edge. You can easily imagine other geometrical imperfections of old hand forged chisels.

Jan
Title: Re: My first test with a chisel
Post by: dusmif on June 14, 2019, 11:30:49 am
Thank You Jan, for this helpfull advice.
I hope I learn by time and mistakes :  ;D
Alf.
Title: Re: My first test with a chisel
Post by: Ken S on June 14, 2019, 10:59:28 pm
Alf,

Chisels are among my favorite tools, both to use and to sharpen. In my opinion, most woodworkers, including me, have too many chisels. Also, most chisels are poorly designed and manufactured.

The first topic in the general Tormek questions describes my feelings about the importance of practice sharpening chisels. The advice is meant to be very specific.

The attached link describes my feelings about working chisels. Forget the sets of twelve mediocre chisels. Chris Schwarz is spot on. Buy one half inch premium chisel and learn to use and sharpen it. I suggest you learn with the eight dollar Irwin Blue Chip and work with the Veritas or Lie-Nielsen chisel.

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/tools-in-your-shop/the-theory-of-chisel-monogamy/

Ken
Title: Re: My first test with a chisel
Post by: RobinW on June 14, 2019, 11:54:04 pm
Hi Alf

I support Ken's suggestion - you should start with a wider chisel - 1" (25mm). (This is because narrow chisels are prone to rotate in both planes as detailed below.)

Also start afresh - The first thing to do as advised by Jan above - is put the USB in the vertical position, drop it down until it is just about touching the stone. Look between USB and the stone against the light. Rotate the stone by hand to show it is consistent around its circumference. If the stone surface and the USB are not exactly parallel and consistent, you need to true up the stone and sort that out. If parallel, and the stone has a slightly rounded corner on one side, don't worry about that just now.

Once the stone is dressed, there are a few things which mess up getting a square edge on a chisel.

See the attached sketches to illustrate the following explanation.

1) See "Chisel angular error" sketch

This shows the chisel in the horizontal plane.

Left hand view shows the ideal ie USB axis and stone surface are parallel. Chisel and jig all align so this is the perfect arrangement.

Middle view shows the USB axis and stone surface are parallel, but the chisel is incorrectly aligned in the jig in the horizontal plane, so an angular grind will result.

Right hand view shows chisel mounted square in the jig, but the axis of USB and stone surface are out of kilter in horizontal plane, so angular grind will result.

Note:- The correct alignment is not necessarily square in the jig, but square at the stone surface.

Angular error may be corrected with the SE77 as it has an adjustment facility. The earlier SE76 requires operator manual correction.

2) See " Chisel rotational error" sketch

This shows end views of the chisel in the vertical plane.

Views are looking at the bevel end of the chisel ie the sharp edge facing you. I have drawn the chisel as a rectangle for simplicity.

The left hand sketch shows the ideal alignment so that the bevel ground will be parallel and even across the chisel.

If the chisel is mounted square in the jig, but the chisel has a twist along its length, this will introduce a rotational error at the bevel end of the chisel. This results in a skewed or cockeyed grind as illustrated in the right hand sketch.

A skewed grind will also occur on a non-twisted chisel if the axis of the USB and stone surface are out of parallel in the vertical plane.

3) If both angular and rotational errors are present, you will have quite a problem!

4) Errors similar to the above can be introduced if the operator leans heavily of the USB or on the side of a chisel. Apply light force to the chisel - firm finger pressure is all that is required.

Lightly stroke the chisel back and forth across the full width of the stone, keep checking the grind, and try and understand what may be causing any errors, and how you can correct errors. Hence the recommendation to get up the learning curve using 1" chisels.

If you start forcing it, you will apply uneven loads and get cockeyed results.

5) Before starting to grind the bevel, apply a marker pen to front and back faces as this immediately shows how the grind is going, and the effect of any corrections.

Use your eyes, as difficult to get a small square across the chisel end without removing from the jig, and then you have to go through the whole set up again, so more chance of error introduction.

I have some very small squares, but with practice I get more than adequate results eyeballing the grinding and re-applying marker pen,, and only using a small a square when I want precision for a specific job.

6) As Ken has already advised, keep the chisel protrusion from the jig short. The maximum I have used is 50mm. The greater the protrusion, the greater the angular offset at the chisel end.

7) If you sign into the Forum, and search using "square edge"', go back a few years in the results and you will see there are plenty of posts covering this topic (mine particularly as I struggled up the learning curve!).

8) As you have realised, flatten the back of the chisel before any grinding. Do that for say 1 - 1.5" up the back of the chisel. Get it nice and flat and polished. You should not need to touch the back for a long time.

9) Watch the video by Jeff Farris - see youtube - Jeff Farris Tormek.

10) One you start getting square edges, then improve your results by introducing the use of the stone re-grader so grinding finer striations; how to remove edge burrs and use of the honing wheel (without rounding over the edge).

Robin


Title: Re: My first test with a chisel
Post by: dusmif on June 15, 2019, 01:16:36 am
Thank you Ken and Robin,
Ken thank you for your advice and the attached link of your article.most interseting.
Robin, again I thank you for your lengthy detail explanation, which I am sure it would be usefull to follow, plus the drawings, which make the explanation more easy to understand.
Thank you Guys.
Alf
Title: Re: My first test with a chisel
Post by: Antz on June 27, 2019, 08:52:52 am
Very informative posts guys. I too like Alf just started doing chisels. My first one looked just like yours Alf but if you keep grinding until you raise a bur along the entire edge it will look fantastic in the end. Maybe I got lucky but my first four chisels came out perfectly square. Took a surprising amount of grinding but it was well worth it.

Regards,
Antz
Title: Re: My first test with a chisel
Post by: Ken S on June 27, 2019, 03:37:41 pm
Back in the 1950s, Popular Science magazine had a monthly column called "The Model Garage". The hero was the wise old mechanic, Gus, who solved a new peoblem every month. I  remember Gus stating, "You can't tune an engine with dirty oil". I feel the same way about doing good work with an untrue grinding wheel. More than once I have been puzzled when the grinding wheel looked true, only to discover through light cuts that the wheel was actually out of true. Life is easier when we eliminate possible sources of trouble. Light truing cuts are an easy way to eliminate one possibility of trouble.

Robin and I are on the same track with chisel width. I could be just as happy with one inch. The important concept is not to start with a less steady narrow chisel. (I also prefer the size of the pint in Scotland!  :)

First cousin to the "precious Tormek grinding wheel" is my "precious tool". That's one of the reasons I have several Irwin bench chisels. They are reasonably well made chisels at a reasonable price. I use them to learn, and am not concerned about wearing them out. You don't have to worry about wearing down one of your precious tools or a customer's tool. (Incidentally, they also work well as chisels.)

Ken
Title: Re: My first test with a chisel
Post by: dusmif on June 27, 2019, 04:42:16 pm
Wise advice Ken.
Alf
Title: Re: My first test with a chisel
Post by: john.jcb on June 28, 2019, 04:45:32 pm
Right before I retired I bartered my sharpening with my boss. For two bottles of sauce (he buys it by the case) for hamburgers and other meat I sharpened his chisel set. They were in really sad shape. Each one had at least one chip. Looking at them I don't think they had ever been sharpened.

The repair and sharpening took a little longer than I anticipated but they all came out looking better and working better than new (I imagine). He returned the next day with a bandaged finger and a commitment to better safety practices. He did say that before his little accident they were a joy to use.
Title: Re: My first test with a chisel
Post by: Ken S on June 28, 2019, 04:58:39 pm
John,

Your post gave me a good laugh!

Sadly, I know two quite competent carpenters whose chisel sharpening method is a trip to the hardware store for new chisels. I suspect many chisels have never been sharpened, and even more have backs which have never been flattened. And, we wonder why they do not work well.........

Ken
Title: Re: My first test with a chisel
Post by: john.jcb on June 28, 2019, 05:31:05 pm
My grandfather was a cabinet maker for his entire life. In his spare time he enjoyed carving figures and adding decoration to custom pieces. He maintained his tools religiously. I still remember as a very young person not being allowed to touch anything until he taught me to use and maintain each tool properly. At the time I did not understand this but it has served me well. I also think poorly maintained tools are a significant factor when people have difficulty producing the expected results with a project.
Title: Re: My first test with a chisel
Post by: Antz on June 29, 2019, 12:17:42 am
Ken,

I know several carpenters as well that “sharpen” chisels by tossing the old ones out and buying a new one. I did two for a friend of mine who was going to throw them out and when I said I could sharpen them he didn’t believe me. He was using them for breaking off nail and screws heads. When I was done I could shave my arm hair with them and push cut printer paper. Needless to say he was speechless.

By the way has anyone noticed sharpening chisels seems to “flatten” the wheel? I started sharpening a chisel and I could feel a very slight high spot on the wheel but towards the end it was gone and upon inspection the stone was completely flat and true. Maybe a freak occurrence?

Antz
Title: Re: My first test with a chisel
Post by: Ken S on June 30, 2019, 01:15:59 am
Interesting observation, Antz. A lot of gouge sharpening can cause a groovein the grinding wheel. It seems logical that the opposite, flat sharpening, might cause the grinding wheel to wear flatter.

Ken
Title: Re: My first test with a chisel
Post by: Scott an Edge on August 24, 2019, 12:19:55 pm
I have spent most of my time sharpening knives, however a colleague rescued a small Marples chisel from his wife’s regular paint tin opening and stirring duties to see what I could do with it on the T-8.

First order of business was to grind the excess rust off using the side of the grinding wheel just so it could sit squarely in the SE-77 jig. The next step was to remove the damaged edge (about 3-4mm) then I started on the new 25deg bevel.

I was very happy with the result, my colleague has vowed to never let his wife or a paint tin lid near it again.

Cheers Scott

With any luck there will be a before and after pic attached.
Title: Re: My first test with a chisel
Post by: Scott an Edge on August 24, 2019, 03:16:21 pm
The chisel ‘renovation’ led to breathing some new life into an old Hand Plane that the same colleague had found at a garage sale. The blade had seen a bench grinder on many occasions and had multiple bevels and blued spots from excessive heat.

Cheers Scott
PS. I realise that this is a ‘chisel’ thread, however it was related to my earlier chisel post ;-)
Title: Re: My first test with a chisel
Post by: RickKrung on August 24, 2019, 08:10:19 pm
This has been a good and interesting thread to read.  Really covers it.  A couple things that I thought of:

1) For a small square to use would be:
   a) one of the smallest machinist squares.  I don't have a photo, but they are easy
        to find with a search.  I have a cheap import set of four that I use all the time,
   b) a small adjustable square, such as a combination square.  I have a Starrett that
       came from my father's machine shop, that I cherish.  It is extremely useful because
       it can be extended only as much as you need for use with the chisel in the jig.
(https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3992.0;attach=3703)

2) True the wheel.  The photo of your wheel says to me that the surface is clogged and needs to be cleaned.  It has been a long time since I sharpened any "dirty" tools, but I cannot recall ever having my wheel become that dirty just from the tool.  The coarse side of the stone grader may clean a lot of it, but at this point, it sounds as though you have not trued the wheel yet, since it was so new.  I am certain that I did not true my first wheel when it was new, but with what I know now, I would have.  That also eliminates the "assumption" that it is true and round coming from the factory, which may or may not be true. 

Many of us have acquired small "stones" for cleaning our SJ stones, which is quite fine and loads up quickly, at least in appearance.  Nagura Stone or "Rust Erasers".  Search on either term and you should find posts on this.  This is the type I prefer. (https://www.amazon.com/Rust-Eraser-Sabitoru-Medium-2-piece/dp/B00FS0BFJC/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&qid=1531349997&sr=8-1&keywords=sabitoru&linkCode=sl1&tag=2guysacooler-20&linkId=5ec48f64847b1263df2862b7feb778b6) And here is a great discussion thread (https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=3374.0) on the topic, in regard to the SJ wheel.  I don't know that any of these would work for the SG stone, but something else might.  I think the Nagura Stone could work as it is actually a stone, whereas the rust eraser types are a plastic medium (like very firm sponge) with some sort of grit embedded. 

There was a recent post on the FaceBook page about using sandpaper to "true" the stone (but I think it really only "conditions" it).  That could be useful here, with the right kind of sandpaper.  A diamond plate could be quite useful as well.  Coarse one.  Some use these for conditioning the surface of a trued wheel after some use.  I use a 1000 grit one for setting the grit on my SG stone, which I use as the second stage sharpening, after using the SB stone coarse.  I have used it on the SJ wheel to refresh the surface rather than truing, which would take off more material.

Rick
Title: Re: My first test with a chisel
Post by: dusmif on August 25, 2019, 11:53:57 am
Thank you Rick, a very interesting points that I must look into..
Alf.
Title: Re: My first test with a chisel
Post by: RobinW on August 27, 2019, 06:59:42 pm
I really feel like making a complaint!

Imagine taking one's wife's can opening chisel and turning it into something sharp! What's the world coming to? What's the poor wife going to do now? Her can opening confidence will be severely dented. There was no information whether the errant husband concerned supplied his wife with a suitable replacement tool.

Good to see that Scott has progressed to plane blades - photos show good level bevel grinding, and no great striations. I generally do my plane blades (for both steel bodied and old wooden bodies types) at 25 degrees as I usually do small amounts of finishing rather than large amounts of stock removal.

Also how is Dismuf getting on after his initial enquiry? Is he getting up the learning curve?
Title: Re: My first test with a chisel
Post by: Elden on August 27, 2019, 07:46:51 pm
RobinW,
   Are you sharpening your plane blades? Just think of all the exercise your muscles are missing because of a sharp blade. Then also think of the lost revenue of the sandpaper manufacturers!?
Title: Re: My first test with a chisel
Post by: dusmif on August 27, 2019, 09:10:21 pm
Hi All,
Thank you RobinW, I am glad that you asked, it gave me the opportunity to update my progress.
Regarding the chisels, with the help and good advice from members here, I managed to safely say that I am nearly there, actually I am very pleased with my results and I can’t stop showing anybody (friends) visiting my workshop how sharp are my chisels. ;D
This morning, I decided  to try my wood planer blades, I have been putting it off from day one, to tell you the truth I was not sure if I could make them without ruining them.
Anyway this morning I said what would be the worse thing that could happen, ruin a blade, so after reading the instruction I took the task and started all 3 of them.
I am pleased with the result, they are not perfect I am sure, because the edges seems a bit rounded, I think because I made them by a belt sander some time ago, so they are not touched by the stone; being at the corner it is not so important to me and I do not wish to keep removing steel to even them with the rest, by time they will be even, I think as I do the next time.
Now the next step is the wife’s scissors, I bought the jig, but still I am not sure about this, I am trying to find an old scissor to try on it first.
I wish to thank you All for your help to familiarize myself with Tormek, which, I  alone would have been a long high learning curve. :)
Alf.
Adding some photos to try and explain what I have said:
Title: Re: My first test with a chisel
Post by: RobinW on August 28, 2019, 06:36:38 pm
Yes Elden, I do sharpen my plane blades now and then. Likewise I only use them now and then! However the amount of woodworking undertaken has now become more then than now!

I'm now at the stage where one has to balance the projected amount of exertion against perceived muscle toning and recovery time! Or maybe I'm just a bit more wise.

Glad to hear that Dusmif is getting up the chisel learning curve and happy with his progress.

I was expecting to see photographs of hand plane blades, not a planer thicknesser (or jointer).

Although I have never attempted planer blades, I would be aiming for similar to the results shown above by Scott and his plane blade. However, Dusmif, if the blades meet your requirements, it's not for me to criticise, but I would encourage you to aim higher next time.
Title: Re: My first test with a chisel
Post by: dusmif on August 28, 2019, 06:57:56 pm
Yes Elden, I do sharpen my plane blades now and then. Likewise I only use them now and then! However the amount of woodworking undertaken has now become more then than now!

I'm now at the stage where one has to balance the projected amount of exertion against perceived muscle toning and recovery time! Or maybe I'm just a bit more wise.

Glad to hear that Dusmif is getting up the chisel learning curve and happy with his progress.

I was expecting to see photographs of hand plane blades, not a planer thicknesser (or jointer).

Although I have never attempted planer blades, I would be aiming for similar to the results shown above by Scott and his plane blade. However, Dusmif, if the blades meet your requirements, it's not for me to criticise, but I would encourage you to aim higher next time.

Thank you Robin, Hand planer blades I have done none yet, but I will post photos as soon I do any.  As I said, I am happy with my planner blade as a starter and yes you are right I know they are far from Good, but being my first try, ( they are sharp considering ) I can't fully complain. I will sure take your advice and aim to do better next time I need to do them again.
Alf.