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In the Shop => Wood Turning => Topic started by: blackhawk on July 28, 2019, 03:25:45 am

Title: Best methods and wheel for sharpening bowl gouges
Post by: blackhawk on July 28, 2019, 03:25:45 am
Hello All - I am using the SVD-185 to sharpen my bowl gouges, then using the leather wheel.  My gouges are standard M2 steel (Robert Sorby).  It seems that I can't get a razor sharp edge.  I get a sharp edge for sure, but it seems less sharp than what my buddy gets on his 1750 rpm grinder with a CBN wheel.  To me, it almost seems like the leather honing wheel dulls the edge just a little by honing the outside.  I wonder if I should get the LA-120 profile leather wheel and only hone the inside?

I have graded my stone with the SP-650 which helped.  What stones work best with bowl gouges?
Title: Re: Best methods and wheel for sharpening bowl gouges
Post by: RichColvin on July 28, 2019, 03:52:02 am
Brad,

I recommend the SB grindstone as it works better for harder steels like HSS and especially for M2.  That is what I've used for many years and it works well.

I sharpen often, and usually only hone when making the final passes on the piece I'm turning. 

The leather wheel works OK, but I prefer a paper wheel on a high speed grinder and jeweler's rouge.  That works especially well for woods that are softer and take a find cut (like walnut, cherry, maple, etc.).  The process i follow is documented at this link :  https://www.sharpeninghandbook.info/Info-WoodLatheTools.html

Here is a diagram:
(http://SharpeningHandbook.info/Images/Process2.png)

Last recommendation:  when you can, move to the SVD-186.  It is a really strong improvement from the SVD-185.  (Then you can dedicate your SVD-185 to the carbide bits used for hollowing.)

Good luck,
Rich
Title: Re: Best methods and wheel for sharpening bowl gouges
Post by: blackhawk on July 29, 2019, 07:25:50 pm
Rich - Thanks for the reply, good info!  Do you use the LA-120 profile wheel at all for gouges?
Title: Re: Best methods and wheel for sharpening bowl gouges
Post by: AKMike on July 29, 2019, 08:27:37 pm
I had the privilege of taking turning classes from Glenn Lucas and Nick Agar, both Tormek Friends https://www.tormek.com/usa/en/about-tormek/tormek-friends/ (https://www.tormek.com/usa/en/about-tormek/tormek-friends/). Glenn rarely honed his gouges and Nick regularly honed. The profile wheels are important to honing, since the burr is going to be inside the flute.

Mike
Title: Re: Best methods and wheel for sharpening bowl gouges
Post by: RichColvin on July 30, 2019, 03:34:07 pm
Brad,

Mike brings up two good points :

I’ve not done any tests to see, but I would bet that there are some key variables at work here:

My advice is this :  try honing vs. not.   Also try vertical vs. horizontal sharpening.  See which work best for you.

The real question is this : what gets you back to using the tool in a way that you will sharpen often?  Turning tools must be resharpened often, and your sharpening practice must facilitate that.  Otherwise, you will end up using a tool too long between sharpenings.

Let us know what you find out.

Kind regards,
Rich
Title: Re: Best methods and wheel for sharpening bowl gouges
Post by: Twisted Trees on July 30, 2019, 05:56:31 pm

The real question is this : what gets you back to using the tool in a way that you will sharpen often?  Turning tools must be resharpened often, and your sharpening practice must facilitate that.  Otherwise, you will end up using a tool too long between sharpenings.

Let us know what you find out.

Kind regards,
Rich

Exactly right, little and often. a lathe running at 1000rpm will strip any perfect edge in a matter of minutes a slightly less perfect edge refreshed often. With a once a week "treat" perfect sharpening is a far more effective use of your time at the Tormek.

This is a wood turning only statement, hand tools, knives etc. are completely different.
Title: Re: Best methods and wheel for sharpening bowl gouges
Post by: blackhawk on September 25, 2019, 09:27:28 pm
As an update, I re-dressed my wheel with the truing tool and that solved 90% of my problem.  I think that I had just built up a glaze that the stone grader couldn't remove.  I also purchased the LA-120 profiling wheel.  The LA-120 helped my sharpness quite a bit.  My procedure know is to grind, hone the outside with the leather wheel, then hone the inside with the LA-120.  I can usually shave the hairs on my arm now.
Title: Re: Best methods and wheel for sharpening bowl gouges
Post by: RichColvin on September 25, 2019, 11:06:59 pm
I use a DMT D8X Extra Course diamond plate to de-glaze my SB grindstone.  It is this one :

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001DZOKNY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Kind regards,
Rich
Title: Re: Best methods and wheel for sharpening bowl gouges
Post by: Ken S on September 26, 2019, 12:34:29 am
I do not pretend to be an expert turner. That stated, I suggest, especially since you are having difficulties, that you use the full traditional Tormek technique. (your SG wheel freshly dressed coarse, then dressed fine, and then the leather honing wheel and profiled wheel). At this stage, sharpness is more important than shaving off time.

Be sure to use the TTS-100 to set up properly for the leather honing wheel and use the profiled wheel carefully.

Turners were using the SG successfully for many years with M2 steel before the SB stone appeared. You may eventually wish to purchase an SB, however, I suggest you learn how to use the SG successfully first. You may also wish to upgrade to the SVD-186 eventually. It is a substantial improvement. However, I recommend you master the process with your present gear first.

Make sure you raise a full burr with the SG graded coarse. Use the truing tool as needed. Keep working with your gouge until it is sharp. Your time will be well spent. Be patient and persistent.
Keep us posted,

Ken
Title: Re: Best methods and wheel for sharpening bowl gouges
Post by: RichColvin on September 26, 2019, 04:04:25 am
Ken and are well aligned on all but one point.

I used an SG grindstone for many years before moving to an SB grindstone.  I find the SB grindstone to be faster than the SG grindstone for HSS, but not more effective.  Indeed, for some of my older, high carbon lathe tools, I prefer the SG grindstone (you know, the skews and gouges that we all have inherited and can’t part with). 

Both grindstones work remarkably well.  And if you are having difficulty with one, go to the one that works for you.  Sharpening should not be a difficult chore. If it is too onerous, you won’t resharpen often enough.  And that will make the woodturning to be much less fun than it can be. And it is also unsafe as you will have to force the tool too much. Dull tools will hurt you far faster than you’d imagine.

Then, after a some months or even a year, go try the SB grindstone again.  You may find it easier to master then.  If not, then sell the grindstone and stick with the SG grindstone.  What works for you is what is more important. 

Allan Batty was a master with a skew.  His son never mastered the skew and uses a gouge instead.  Both gave/give us awesome works, and I doubt anyone knows (or cares) what type of tool was used.


Where I disagree is this :  the SVD-186 is so far superior to the SVD-185 that you should invest in that as soon as you can.  I think it is more important to your sharpening regimen than the use of the SB grindstone on HSS instead of the SG grindstone.


Bit Long, but I hope I helped.

Kind regards,
Rich
Title: Re: Best methods and wheel for sharpening bowl gouges
Post by: RichColvin on September 26, 2019, 04:09:31 am
This is a wood turning only statement, hand tools, knives etc. are completely different.

Pete is exactly right.
Title: Re: Best methods and wheel for sharpening bowl gouges
Post by: Ken S on October 03, 2019, 12:51:33 pm
Rich,

Your thoughts on the SVD-186 made me think. We actually are in agreement. You just stated the thought more forcefully, and correctly. Over the years, I have reviewed several Tormek models and jigs. While I have been favorably impressed with all of them, the SVD-186 was the only one where I gave an unequivocal recommendation that it was a worthwhile upgrade for anyone successfully using the earlier SVD-185. I still feel that way. This belief was reinforced when I watched Glenn Lucas in one of his DVDs. Before the SVD-186, Glenn had been using several SVD-185s, each permanently set for a particular gouge. The redesigned ratching jig setting adjustment eliminating the slippage problem which plagued the earlier model. Glenn now uses only one SVD-186. In my opinion, the ratcheting design is the most significant of the several significant design upgrades in the SVD-186.

I considered the SVD-185 and TTS-100 Tormek's most advanced combination. It was the state of the art. The art got better with the introduction of the SVD-186. This is an example of why I do not recommend purchasing jig kits for future possible sharpening needs. Buy what you need for the present. If you buy jigs for future possible use, by the time that future may arrive, Tormek may have redesigned an improved jig.

This is especially true with the SVD-186. Follow Rich's advice.

Ken
Title: Re: Best methods and wheel for sharpening bowl gouges
Post by: Rob on January 12, 2020, 05:59:10 pm
Hi Folks

I've been using the Tormek to sharpen my bowl (and spindle) gouges for many years now and I use the silicon blackstone wheel for any hard metals.  In the case of the honing.  I dont do this every episode of sharpening but perhaps 1 out of 3.  I'll polish the inside of the flute with the little leather wheel and then sharpen with the SVD as normal.  I then finish with 1 light pass on the flute inside with the little wheel.

If I'm doing a finishing cut on a particularly brutal piece of stock (dry, with interlocking grain for example or something punky and spalted), I'll always use the above procedure.  Every time this allows a sheer cut, with the flute at 45 deg to the stock to make gossamer thin shavings and move yourself up the starting grit with the sanding.  Rarely need to start at less than 120 grit using this procedure.  But the old adage is true, sharpen little and often because that fabulous edge doesn't last very long.  Hopefully, it does last long enough to complete the finishing cut though and cut off any bruised or torn grain.

Title: Re: Best methods and wheel for sharpening bowl gouges
Post by: Ken S on January 12, 2020, 11:38:05 pm
Rob,
During your sabbatical, I have started doing a (very) little turning. I purchased an SB-250 blackstone ten years ago. Frankly, I never had much luck with it. I kept it because several turners and sharpeners I respect have produced good results with it. You are among this group.
I finally decided to have another go with a new blackstone. Preliminary results are much improved; my confidence is being restored. My other duties are lessening. I will keep everyone posted as I have more turning time.

Ken
Title: Re: Best methods and wheel for sharpening bowl gouges
Post by: Rob on January 12, 2020, 11:47:07 pm
Excellent Ken :-)
Title: Re: Best methods and wheel for sharpening bowl gouges
Post by: Ken S on January 16, 2020, 01:13:40 pm
In my opinion, this video is the best Tormek has ever produced:

https://www.tormek.com/international/en/accessories/other-accessories/tnt-300-woodturners-instruction-box/

It is well worth the cost. I think it should be a staple in every Tormek woodturner's library. That stated, I believe Tormek marketing would like to replace it. It shows Jeff Farris, a former team member (and founder/past moderator of this forum) using a SuperGrind Tormek. No doubt marketing would prefer to show a T8 being used by a current associate or Tormek Friend.

I would like to see it updated, but for other reasons. When it was made, the SG-250 was the only Tormek wheel. A turning instruction video from Tormek is incomplete without an in depth discussion of all six grinding wheels. The era of carbon steel turning tools has passed. The era of M2 turning tools is passing. We need current information. Less pressing, but still important, is that the DVD uses the older jig designs. Please do not misunderstand me. The information in the DVD is very solid. In addition to being a Tormek expert, Jeff is also a very experienced turner and demonstrator. The DVD just needs to be updated to reflect the last twenty years of Tormek innovation.

Ken