Tormek Community

In the Shop => General Tormek Questions => Topic started by: Morne1312 on October 11, 2019, 01:40:51 pm

Title: General Concern
Post by: Morne1312 on October 11, 2019, 01:40:51 pm
Hi There.

Just a quick question that i haven't seen asked anywhere,

When using the coarse or fine diamond wheels and then moving to the SJ 250 Japanese water stone, do i need to empty the water tray?

Would the anti Corrosive concentrate adversely affect the SJ 250 or the SG 250 that i already have if i use the same water or must i empty the tray and use clean water for the normal stones?
Title: Re: General Concern
Post by: Ken S on October 11, 2019, 04:39:34 pm
Morne,

I have wondered the same thing. This seems an excellent post for support. I forwarded a screen shot to them and will keep you posted on their reply.

Ken
Title: Re: General Concern
Post by: john.jcb on October 11, 2019, 04:41:08 pm
I don't have these wheels so this is just my opinion not based on experience.

If I had these wheels I would change the water just to make sure nothing could damage the Japanese wheel. I would decant and reuse the water from the diamond wheel to be conservative with the anti-corrosion fluid. After spending so much on the extra wheels I would be careful with them.
Title: Re: General Concern
Post by: Morne1312 on October 11, 2019, 05:05:29 pm
Thank you so much for the help Ken and yes john I was also thinking of decanting for re use but then also comes the question how long can one re use before the efficacy of the anti corrosion liquid is obsolete and one needs new water and liquid.....
 .
Title: Re: General Concern
Post by: john.jcb on October 11, 2019, 05:22:23 pm
Thank you so much for the help Ken and yes john I was also thinking of decanting for re use but then also comes the question how long can one re use before the efficacy of the anti corrosion liquid is obsolete and one needs new water and liquid.....
 .

Again if it were me; I would mix a batch of fresh liquid and store it in a glass bottle. I would use this to replenish liquid lost in the grinding and decanting. By adding fresh solution it would keep the concentration close.  I am tempted to buy a fine diamond wheel and in my process I would remove it and dry it after use. I would do all my knives in a batch, change to the diamond wheel and finish them all. I would then remove the diamond wheel, dry and put it away.
Title: Re: General Concern
Post by: RickKrung on October 11, 2019, 05:27:13 pm
I have all the diamond wheels and yes, I do change the water whenever I switch away from or to them.  Mostly I do not want to contaminate the AC water and I do filter it using cone type coffee filters to keep the used AC water as clean as possible.  If I go to that trouble, why on earth would I use the AC water for anything but diamond wheels. 

Presumably, the only thing in the used AC water are steel particles and I suppose some fragments of fractured diamonds, but I would assume and hope the latter is a very small amount, as otherwise, the wheels would be wearing out quickly.  Hopefully, if the magnet is doing its job, most of the steel particles would be captured, but as I recall, there still seemed to be residue in the tray.  I do wipe it out when I change to the diamond wheels and put the AC water in, as I do not want contamination from previous stones/grinding.  I will pay more attention to this in the future. 

Good question about whether the AC water would adversely affect the SJ stone.  I agree, good question for support.  I hope we hear from them on this question. 

Rick
Title: Re: General Concern
Post by: MikeK on October 12, 2019, 09:06:52 am
I was concerned about the effects of the AC additive on the SG stones when I eventually buy some diamond stones. To avoid the cross contamination, I’m going to buy another water tray and keep the systems separate. This might be overkill, but the cost of a second tray is minimal.
Title: Re: General Concern
Post by: van on October 12, 2019, 11:44:40 am
Perhaps off topic.
Sorry, but after using DE diamond stone it is advisable to use Japanese SJ stone or should it be advisable to go directly to the leather wheel? :-[
Title: Re: General Concern
Post by: Ken S on October 12, 2019, 03:07:00 pm
These are all good, pertinent questions which deserve answers.

Before I purchased my T7, my primary means of sharpening were Norton water stones. I used them in a Veritas stone pond. The stone pond resembles a photographic tray. It had two metal rods with clamps to hold the stones. The stone being used was flipped above its rod. The unused stone was beneath its rod. I don't remember if it could hold a third stone. The usual progression was 1000, 4000, and 8000. The same water was used throughout, and the stones were stored wet in the water. No effort was made to segregate the water by stone grit size.

While I do not recall anyone complaining about cross contamination at the time, I would not feel comfortable working that way now. It may not actually present any practical problems, however, it would bother me.

My feelings about reusing anti corrosion solution water are primarily influenced by two life habits.

1) I am from a family of very thrifty people. Thrift has always been more than practical for us; it is a virtue.

2) My lifelong artistic passion is photography, especially black and white film photography. For much of my life, I enjoyed working in my home darkroom. I practiced careful archival processing, which included always starting with fresh chemicals. This was a mental attitude choice as much as a practical choice.

So, one side of me wants to reuse the anti corrosion solution and the other side abhors reusing chemicals. This dilemma is compounded by Tormek's almost complete silence on the issue. We do not have any substantial recommendations from Tormek.

My one practical experience with overuse was last December. I was sharpening with my T8 and diamond wheels one evening. I intended to continue the next day. I did not follow my usual practice of dumping the AC solution in a plastic jar and cleaning the trough. Instead I just lowered the trough to leave the wheel dry. Later that night I was in the ER and spent almost a week in the hospital. I did not have much energy for a couple weeks. The AC water completely evaporated, leaving the steel particles on the magnet and a film on the trough. Fortunately an old kitchen scrub brush and Dawn made a quick and complete cleanup. The round bottom cornerless trough of the T8 is a real aid in cleanup.

Should The Tormek ACC solution be reused?
If so, for how long?
Is there a problem with cross contamination?
What are the supposed benefits of using ACC with traditional stones?
Is there a problem with using ACC with the SJ 4000 grit stones?

I don't think Tormek anticipated the demand for diamond wheels. I can understand initial shipping delays. I hope that with these behind them, Tormek will devote more resources to informing its faithful existing customers about the essential techniques of using its diamond wheels.

Ken
Title: Re: General Concern
Post by: Morne1312 on October 14, 2019, 08:27:05 am
Thanks for the informative reply and suggestions as usual ken
Title: Re: General Concern
Post by: Sebastien on October 14, 2019, 11:15:33 am
Hi everyone,

I just wanted to try to answer some of your questions regarding the ACC-150.

Should the ACC solution be reused?
Yes, it can be reused. When the water vaporizes the ACC stays in the water tray. You can the just refill the water tray. 

If so for how long?
It can be reused for quite some time. The only issue I experienced that since there is no preservative in the ACC-150 is that the water starts smelling after a while. Then I wash it and put new ACC-150 in.

Is there a problem with cross contamination?
No cross contamination is not an issue.

What are the benefits of using ACC with traditional stones?
The advantage of using ACC with traditional stones are that sometimes steel particles gets stuck on for example the SG stone which rust, and it gives it a reddish color. This is avoided when using the ACC-150 with traditional stones. Also, when sharpening tools with the ACC-150 some ACC is often left on the tools which helps preventing rust on the tools.

Is there a problem with using the ACC with the Japanese Waterstone?
No problem!

Finally, the only recommendation I want to stress is to lower the water tray when finished like always when working on the Tormek.

Stay sharp!

/Sébastien
Title: Re: General Concern
Post by: john.jcb on October 14, 2019, 03:44:36 pm
Thank you Sebastien for the information.
Title: Re: General Concern
Post by: Ken S on October 14, 2019, 05:16:21 pm
Another thank you, Sebastien.

Ken
Title: Re: General Concern
Post by: ega on October 03, 2020, 05:21:34 pm
Short of starting a new thread, this one seems the most recent and appropriate place to ask some questions arising from my recent investment in a DF-250.
When unpacking the wheel I noticed what looked like traces of rust in the bore and, having cleaned it, decided to grease the spindle. This prompted me to wonder whether the wheel could be made of stainless material. I realize that the requirements of the electroplating process may preclude this but if practical it would certainly make life simpler (and cheaper - Chanel No 5 comes to mind when contemplating the concentrate).
The instructions for the ACC-150 say to mix it with water before filling the trough; is this so that the two can be physically stirred? When I made up the dilute concentrate I thought I detected a very faint blue tinge in the water and, after stirring, a white cloudy effect. What is this and would distilled water be preferable to tap water (I live in a hard water area)?
I have taken note of Sébastien's very helpful post above and assume that, albeit a Newbie, he is the Sébastien from Tormek.
I note that a smell indicates the need to change the concentrate; assuming that I retain my sense of smell Covid notwithstanding, what sort of smell should I be trying to detect?
Title: Re: General Concern
Post by: Ken S on October 03, 2020, 07:13:48 pm
Looking back at the replies, Sebastien is the same Sebastien doing the Tormek online classes. I sent him a PM requesting that he answer ega's last reply. Tormek doesn't work weekends, so it will probably be sometime next week before we hear from him.

Ken
Title: Re: General Concern
Post by: ega on October 03, 2020, 07:43:28 pm
Ken S:
Thank you for your good offices.
BTW, I hope that whatever it was that took you to ER (see above) is now just a memory.
Title: Re: General Concern
Post by: Ken S on October 03, 2020, 11:17:36 pm
Ega,

Thank you for the good wishes. You and I are still both active on the forum since 2009.

As part of my self study, I watch many you tubes which might not seem Tormek specific. I found this sharpening video today by Frank Klausz, a highly respected woodworker. He sharpens with waterstones, however, I noticed that he uses the same wooden water trough for all of his stones, without worrying about changing the water. He is a very skilled, dedicated woodworker and sharpener. If he felt that cross contamination was a real concern, I am certain that he would have used separate water troughs. Theoretically, it makes sense to use separate water. In the working world, it may not really make any difference. Here is the link:

https://youtu.be/pAR9fyXV8go

Ken
Title: Re: General Concern
Post by: ega on October 05, 2020, 12:25:21 pm
Ken S
Thank you for the Frank Klausz link - seemingly a lovely man, at peace with the world. I don't use my water stones much these days, but for someone who does, the pond plus rotatable triple holder is obviously a good idea. The same goes for no-jig sharpening.
I look forward to hearing from Sébastien.
Another point that occurred to me arises from the discussion one sees about the danger when grinding steel with diamond of the heat generated converting the precious coating to base carbon. I imagine that the slow speed of the Tormek doesn't permit this even when used dry. The stated maximum RPM for the Tormek wheel is 150 although I believe the actual speed is 90 (possibly dependent on mains frequency).
Title: Re: General Concern
Post by: ega on October 08, 2020, 12:11:12 pm
A couple more points:
The diamond wheel is said to be suitable for all materials. Thinking of the old-style brazed carbide lathe tool, would the wheel suffer from coming into contact with the soft braze metal sandwiched between the carbide and the alloy steel body? (Same point, of course, for brazed HSS.
If dilute concentrate evaporates does this increase the percentage of concentrate in the liquid and could this be measured by a hygrometer (as used for battery acid) or similar?
Title: Re: General Concern
Post by: RickKrung on October 08, 2020, 03:52:23 pm
My sense is the very small amount of braze material in the joint between the holder and carbide will not be a problem.  That type of tool has been around for a long time and I've never heard of any issues.  I would NOT attempt to sharpen any brazing rod or similar soft metal with a diamond wheel/stone, however, as that involves quite a bit more material. 

Rick
Title: Re: General Concern
Post by: Sebastien on October 09, 2020, 09:01:12 am
Short of starting a new thread, this one seems the most recent and appropriate place to ask some questions arising from my recent investment in a DF-250.
When unpacking the wheel I noticed what looked like traces of rust in the bore and, having cleaned it, decided to grease the spindle. This prompted me to wonder whether the wheel could be made of stainless material. I realize that the requirements of the electroplating process may preclude this but if practical it would certainly make life simpler (and cheaper - Chanel No 5 comes to mind when contemplating the concentrate).
The instructions for the ACC-150 say to mix it with water before filling the trough; is this so that the two can be physically stirred? When I made up the dilute concentrate I thought I detected a very faint blue tinge in the water and, after stirring, a white cloudy effect. What is this and would distilled water be preferable to tap water (I live in a hard water area)?
I have taken note of Sébastien's very helpful post above and assume that, albeit a Newbie, he is the Sébastien from Tormek.
I note that a smell indicates the need to change the concentrate; assuming that I retain my sense of smell Covid notwithstanding, what sort of smell should I be trying to detect?

Hi everyone, first of all my apologizes for my tardive answer. I will try to answer your questions as well as I can.

The reason why we use a steel core (that can rust) on our diamond wheels and not an aluminum core is that the diamond plating process with aluminum is not environmentally friendly at all. Therefore, we have chosen the steal core. A good tip would be to grease the bore of the wheel with the same grease that you used to grease the spindle to avoid rust there.   

Regarding which water to use with the ACC-150 tap water is just fine and the two can be physically stirred.

When it comes to the smell I would say that as long you can stand the smell of it the diamond wheels can stand it as well:) So just keep going until you find the smell being unpleasant for your own wellbeing.

Stay sharp/

Sébastien
Title: Re: General Concern
Post by: ega on October 09, 2020, 04:02:03 pm
Sébastien
Many thanks for your advice; it is always good to get a tip "from the horse's mouth" and I am glad to hear that the environment is high on your agenda!
Incidentally, one advantage of the aluminium core would be its lighter weight when it comes to high speed grinding where some conventional grinders struggle to get the heavier wheels up to speed (not a problem for the Tormek, of course).
Have you anything to add on my later post already helpfully commented by Rick Krung, please?
Title: Re: General Concern
Post by: Sebastien on October 14, 2020, 11:49:58 am
Hi Ega,

Just as Rick said in his post it is a so small amount of braze material so there is no problem at all. Also, the RPM on the Tormek is low which makes it even less of problem.

/ Sébastien
Title: Re: General Concern
Post by: Ken S on October 14, 2020, 03:44:56 pm
Ega,
This topic brings to mind several thoughts. No criticism of you is intended. The comment about heat changing diamond is an example of something which is factual, but not relevant. I would have concerns about using diamond wheels with high speed (or half speed) dry grinders. However, with a water cooled low speed grinder like the Tormek, I don't consider it relevant.

Also, I think we sometimes overthink things. While I do not want to condone sloppy practices, I think siphoning ACC with a turkey baster seems to remove enough contaminates. We are sharpening tools and knives, not doing laboratory research.

Ken
Title: Re: General Concern
Post by: ega on October 14, 2020, 05:37:16 pm
Ken S:
As moderator you are, of course, the arbiter of relevance.
However, the title of the thread is "General Concern" and, having both a Tormek diamond wheel and modestly high-speed ditto, I am interested in which is the better one to use for a given job; the posts commenting on my point were helpful to me if to no one else.
Title: Re: General Concern
Post by: Ken S on October 15, 2020, 02:03:52 am
Ega,

I apologize if I offended you. That was not my intention; nor did I intend to imply that your posts are not relevant.
For the record, although I happen to be the forum moderator, I act as moderator as little as possible, preferring to post as a regular member. I have never thought of myself as the "arbiter of relevance".

My use of the word "relevant" was poorly chosen. The side effect of diamond changing to carbon at high temperature has been mentioned from time to time as a reason to choose CBN instead of diamond wheels. On the surface, this might seem like a valid point. With a higher speed dry grinder, it would be a game changer. It is a good question, and should be addressed. I should have said that with the water cooled, low wheel speed of the Tormek, overheating is not a problem. The question deserved a non critical, factual answer, not one which inadvertently implied that it should not be asked. Incidentally, I use both diamond and CBN wheels. They both work, as does the SG that I use most of the time.

For the record, on the rare occasions when I feel compelled to moderate, I prefer to do it diplomatically through a private message. Over the years, I have requested that a couple members clean up their language. I have also encouraged a few members to limit commercial activity on the forum. Mixed in with this, I have received occasional constructive emails from members with less than glowing comments about my moderating. I take these very seriously.

Keep on posting.

Ken
Title: Re: General Concern
Post by: ega on October 15, 2020, 12:19:22 pm
Ken S

None taken whatsoever! You are the most moderate of moderators.

As a very occasional poster I am conscious that I may not yet have acquired a complete feel for the forum's etiquette and ethos but I thought it worth explaining the background to my post.
Title: Re: General Concern
Post by: Ken S on October 15, 2020, 05:24:03 pm
Ega,

I'm glad you did. Sometimes my psychic super radar is a bit out of synche.

Ken