Tormek Community

In the Shop => General Tormek Questions => Topic started by: Sharpco on November 06, 2020, 09:10:37 am

Title: Alternative ACC-150
Post by: Sharpco on November 06, 2020, 09:10:37 am
We need ACC-150 to use Diamond wheels.

How about Kool Mist as alternative?

https://www.amazon.com/Kool-Mist-Concentrated-Coolant-Container/dp/B00H9P12HE/ref=sxts_sxwds-bia-wc-p13n1_0?cv_ct_cx=kool+mist&dchild=1&keywords=kool+mist&pd_rd_i=B00H9P12HE&pd_rd_r=15b45a70-b1f2-448f-add9-c31b386e5617&pd_rd_w=f38Sb&pd_rd_wg=hLYNV&pf_rd_p=5be4970c-0256-4afe-9550-68021bd84e5b&pf_rd_r=75ZT95DB6Z2TG14JE48E&psc=1&sr=1-1-791c2399-d602-4248-afbb-8a79de2d236f
Title: Re: Alternative ACC-150
Post by: cbwx34 on November 06, 2020, 01:40:07 pm
We need ACC-150 to use Diamond wheels.

How about Kool Mist as alternative?

https://www.amazon.com/Kool-Mist-Concentrated-Coolant-Container/dp/B00H9P12HE/ref=sxts_sxwds-bia-wc-p13n1_0?cv_ct_cx=kool+mist&dchild=1&keywords=kool+mist&pd_rd_i=B00H9P12HE&pd_rd_r=15b45a70-b1f2-448f-add9-c31b386e5617&pd_rd_w=f38Sb&pd_rd_wg=hLYNV&pf_rd_p=5be4970c-0256-4afe-9550-68021bd84e5b&pf_rd_r=75ZT95DB6Z2TG14JE48E&psc=1&sr=1-1-791c2399-d602-4248-afbb-8a79de2d236f

No idea... but just looking at their website, it looks like “Formula #78” would be the better option? (vs. the #77 you linked to).

https://koolmist.com/formula-78-for-light-duty

Rust prevention doesn’t seem to be the primary purpose, but the msds sheets, also on their website, should give you more info on if it’ll work.
Title: Re: Alternative ACC-150
Post by: Sharpco on November 06, 2020, 02:21:41 pm
We need ACC-150 to use Diamond wheels.

How about Kool Mist as alternative?

https://www.amazon.com/Kool-Mist-Concentrated-Coolant-Container/dp/B00H9P12HE/ref=sxts_sxwds-bia-wc-p13n1_0?cv_ct_cx=kool+mist&dchild=1&keywords=kool+mist&pd_rd_i=B00H9P12HE&pd_rd_r=15b45a70-b1f2-448f-add9-c31b386e5617&pd_rd_w=f38Sb&pd_rd_wg=hLYNV&pf_rd_p=5be4970c-0256-4afe-9550-68021bd84e5b&pf_rd_r=75ZT95DB6Z2TG14JE48E&psc=1&sr=1-1-791c2399-d602-4248-afbb-8a79de2d236f

No idea... but just looking at their website, it looks like “Formula #78” would be the better option? (vs. the #77 you linked to).

https://koolmist.com/formula-78-for-light-duty

Rust prevention doesn’t seem to be the primary purpose, but the msds sheets, also on their website, should give you more info on if it’ll work.

Yes. #78 is for light duty, so maybe it's better option than #77.

I ordered #77 to use with belt grinder and it will be arrived in a few days. I still use ACC-150 with CBN wheels on the Tormek, but I thought it would be a good solution for someone looking for a cheaper alternative.
Title: Re: Alternative ACC-150
Post by: Ken S on November 10, 2020, 01:45:10 am
My question is, who would do the research and testing? I can't imagine Tormek being interested in finding a lower priced alternative to their ACC-150. I have no inside information; however, considering the small number of Tormek employees, I think the diamond wheels program, like the rubber mat program, is probably contracted out to a trusted partner company. I would think ACC-150 is part of that program.

In the past, I have wondered if the DWS two hundred mm diameter wheels marketed for dry use with the T2 could be used wet with ACC-150 and a T4. I was curious, but not curious enough to chance risking my wheels.

It will require Tormek users brave enough to risk their diamond wheels testing. Any volunteers?........

Ken
Title: Re: Alternative ACC-150
Post by: Ken S on November 10, 2020, 10:40:27 pm
I received an email from Stig with Tormek's thoughts about choosing ACC. Here it is:


“I just wanted to add some info for the discussion on the forum. ACC-150 was especially developed for Tormek since we did not like all the warning labels other brands have to place on their products.
There are other products that works too, but are not environmentally friendly. We believe that it's worth the extra cost to be able to work with products that don’t harm nature.
Also, on our Live demos, Sebastien gave the tip that ACC doesn't evaporate, so in can be used several times if someone just lets the water dry out."
 
I would expect this level of concern from Tormek.

Ken
Title: Re: Alternative ACC-150
Post by: jvh on November 10, 2020, 11:24:45 pm
Hello,

honestly, ACC-150 is the only reason why I don't have diamond wheels yet.

The reason why we use a steel core (that can rust) on our diamond wheels and not an aluminum core is that the diamond plating process with aluminum is not environmentally friendly at all. Therefore, we have chosen the steal core. A good tip would be to grease the bore of the wheel with the same grease that you used to grease the spindle to avoid rust there.   

Regarding which water to use with the ACC-150 tap water is just fine and the two can be physically stirred.
...
Sébastien
I received an email from Stig with Tormek's thoughts about choosing ACC. Here it is:
We believe that it's worth the extra cost to be able to work with products that don’t harm nature.

I have to ask how environmentally friendly is production thousands of wheels under controlled manufacturing against hundred thousands plastic bottles with ACC-150 used through the years. Fluid can be environmentally friendly itself but what about all chain of production?

jvh
Title: Re: Alternative ACC-150
Post by: Ken S on November 11, 2020, 09:24:19 pm
jvh,

I don't have enough science background to answer that.

Tormek's first diamond wheels were designed to be used dry. I would not be surprised to see them eventually be designed to work with tap water, like the latest generation of CBN wheels.

Ken
Title: Re: Alternative ACC-150
Post by: ega on November 12, 2020, 11:27:27 am
I have been taking some first tentative steps with my new DF-250 and was interested in the posts above. In particular, I am somewhat reassured to know that the high cost of ACC-150 is offset by an environmental dividend.

After my first session I decanted the water plus ACC into a clean sealed container; returning a day or so later, I noticed small blobs of (?) mould growth and removed these before returning the water to the trough. I have seen a suggestion that one should filter the water but was wary of filtering out the ACC active ingredients; I wonder whether a (Swedish) Melitta coffee filter would be suitable?

I have been sharpening carbide-tipped tools and, of course, the carbide grindings are not trapped by the magnet so filtering would be helpful in removing them as long as the ACC were not also removed.

On the question of evaporation, presumably only the water is lost so that, in theory at least, it would just be a matter of topping up with water alone?

As always, it is good to have authoritative comments from Tormek and Stig; in the UK his name is associated with a masked racing driver on TV and also the excellent children's book "Stig of the Dump".
Title: Re: Alternative ACC-150
Post by: Ken S on November 12, 2020, 01:37:47 pm
“THE HIGH COST OF ACC-150”

We have had numerous posts lamenting "the high cost of ACC-150”. Let's calculate that cost. Two 150ml bottles of ACC-150 cost $39 US. The water trough of the T8 requires 125ml of water + 5ml of ACC. Rounding up our cost for simplicity and to allow for some spillage, let's use $40 and 6ml. This works out to 50 batches at $.80 each from our two bottles. For even more simplicity, and over the protests of members more mathematically adept than I am, let's round that up even higher to $1 US per batch.

For the typical user, a (one) diamond wheel adds around $300 to the cost of the Tormek. While this diamond wheel could be used dry, for good practice, it should be used with ACC. For decades, Tormek users have been using plain water with SG wheels. For simplicity, let's ignore the water utility bill and consider the water "free".

Diamond wheels expand the scope of the Tormek. You mention sharpening carbide tipped tools. The possible list would also include ceramic knives and greater efficiency sharpening or reshaping high speed steel tools.

While any expectation that diamond wheels last forever is not reasonable, one would reasonably expect longer life than the SG. Twice the life would seem like a very conservative estimate. At that life expectancy, a diamond wheel with its ACC is at worst no more expensive than two SG wheels with "free" water.

Diamond wheels cut faster than the SG. I leave it to you to insert your own figures for time and operating cost savings. Whether you have a sharpening business for income or sharpen for the good will of family and friends, you should calculate this into your ACC costs.

Food for thought.

Ken
Title: Re: Alternative ACC-150
Post by: ega on November 12, 2020, 06:02:35 pm
Ken S:

Thanks for the "total cost of ownership" analysis. The GBP cost of the ACC is rather higher here in the UK (c $44 equivalent) but I think that amateur users are more likely to form an impression based on overall satisfaction rather than just cost in money and time. I am very pleased with the ease of metal removal with the diamond wheel when used with the drill grinding attachment which is fast enough to warrant extra care to avoid overshooting when grinding the secondary facets.

No harm, however, in the OP's suggestion of looking for an effective, cheaper alternative provided its use does not affect Tormek's warranty.

Title: Re: Alternative ACC-150
Post by: Ken S on November 12, 2020, 06:10:44 pm
Good point, ega.

I imagine many users are like me, where two bottles of ACC last a long time. I might feel differently as a high volume user........

Ken
Title: Re: Alternative ACC-150
Post by: Sharpco on November 13, 2020, 12:41:02 pm
Somebody said Kool mist is not a perfect corrosion inhibitor. I'll test it soon.
Title: Re: Alternative ACC-150
Post by: Josu V on November 14, 2020, 06:46:35 pm
In these days,  I have been 1 year using Tormek DF-250 and Tormek DE-250 with tap water only; without ACC-150 or another corrosion inhibitor.
At least, four knives every day from Tuesday to Saturday.

Both wheels are in perfect state.

The only point to consider during the work with this wheels is to dry them just after use.
This is my experience.

Regards
Title: Re: Alternative ACC-150
Post by: Sharpco on November 16, 2020, 12:21:26 pm
In these days,  I have been 1 year using Tormek DF-250 and Tormek DE-250 with tap water only; without ACC-150 or another corrosion inhibitor.
At least, for knives every day from Tuesday to Saturday.

Both wheels are in perfect state.

The only point to consider during the work with this wheels is to dry them just after use.
This is my experience.

Regards

That's great!

But someone fails to manage and rusts the wheels.

https://youtu.be/Tj1vhE7cDU0
Title: Re: Alternative ACC-150
Post by: ega on November 16, 2020, 03:22:58 pm
I noticed a new, slurping noise when first running my diamond wheel and, on dropping the trough at the end of the session, that a considerable quantity of water then runs out of the wheel (I assume it gets into the frame past the plastic end cover).

Josu V's findings are good to know but I would be concerned that, however carefully dried, there would be some residual water to do mischief.

How much more would it cost in money and environmentally to make the frame of stainless steel?
Title: Re: Alternative ACC-150
Post by: cbwx34 on November 16, 2020, 03:41:02 pm
I noticed a new, slurping noise when first running my diamond wheel and, on dropping the trough at the end of the session, that a considerable quantity of water then runs out of the wheel (I assume it gets into the frame past the plastic end cover).
...

I noticed the same thing.

I did a bit of experimenting a while back on a piece of steel... one thing I found is the ACC appeared to protect the steel, even if the steel was wiped off and plain water was subsequently put on it.  So, if cost or how much you use is an issue, you might get away with only using it occasionally?  Can't say for sure (never tested the wheel itself), but it's possible... YMMV.
Title: Re: Alternative ACC-150
Post by: ega on November 17, 2020, 03:33:32 pm
cbwx34:

Thank you for your interesting observation which engages areas of technology way beyond my knowledge. Rust seems to occur in unpredictable ways even though one knows it's just natural laws at work.

Incidentally, I tried the idea of filtering the used ACC to remove carbide and other foreign particles and found that it was a very lengthy process, presumably because the paper coffee filter I used became choked.
Title: Re: Alternative ACC-150
Post by: Josu V on November 22, 2020, 11:41:07 am
In these days,  I have been 1 year using Tormek DF-250 and Tormek DE-250 with tap water only; without ACC-150 or another corrosion inhibitor.
At least, for knives every day from Tuesday to Saturday.

Both wheels are in perfect state.

The only point to consider during the work with this wheels is to dry them just after use.
This is my experience.

Regards

That's great!

But someone fails to manage and rusts the wheels.

https://youtu.be/Tj1vhE7cDU0

Is very important to dry the wheel after use.

I keep the wheel in its original case,but in the bottom part i put various newspaper pages in order to absorb the water that is trapped inside the casing.
before this, I make some movements to expel the major part of this water.

Next day, I´ll take some photos of my two wheels.

Regards