Author Topic: 1 day old Tormek, should I bin it?  (Read 10148 times)

Offline Chief

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1 day old Tormek, should I bin it?
« on: March 30, 2012, 11:05:37 am »
I took delivery of my T7 with woodturners kit yesterday, cost as much as my lathe, but having seen some Tormek sharp tools decided I had to have it... previous method is Record 8" dry grinder with Sorby jig.

First tool I attempted was my Skew, BAD idea... 3 hours later and it was not as sharp as it gets off my Record in 2 minutes. needs reshaping by about 2degrees to work in the jig. have read a few posts on here and will have another go at it.

But just as I was about to give up and bin the Tormek, I reshaped and sharpend a bowl gouge. This one did work not much difference in the shape so after 15 minutes I have a very workable edge, not like the DVD mirror shine but OK for first attempt. So the investment is not going straight to the bin.

But then I tried my spindle gouges, OK on the large ones, absolutely many of the worn ones require clamping on the round as the flute is not long enough to fit the clamp into them. Have considered putting a flat onto the top of the gouge to make it clamp repeatably, but how do others manage?

Next problem is the Tormek jig won't hold the small 5mm spindle gouges at all is it only possible to do these free hand? or does someone have a solution?

I know new tools need learning, and I will give it more time, but have to say at the moment I don't love the tormek much at all.

Pete
Cheers

Pete

Offline Chief

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Re: 1 day old Tormek, should I bin it?
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2012, 02:07:59 pm »
Confidence in new Tormek reaches new low, on sharpening a 10mm Spindle gouge just after redressing the stone for the 3rd time in 2 days both wings were just fine, rolling the entire gouge instantly gave me a pointed end not a curve, and worse than that it gave me a grove in the stone, is it supposed to be that soft? :-\
Cheers

Pete

Offline Jeff Farris

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Re: 1 day old Tormek, should I bin it?
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2012, 11:29:19 pm »
Pete,

A "point" means that you're spending to much time grinding on the sides, and not enough at the center. Vary your position on the stone to minimize grooving.

Take the black ring off the clamp of the SVD-185 and you can clamp up the small gouges.

Every one of my older gouges has a flat "milled" on the shank. I used quotes because some of them were done on a machine, but I've done most of them by hand and eye.
Jeff Farris

Offline Chief

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Re: 1 day old Tormek, should I bin it?
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2012, 02:48:40 am »
Hi Jeff

Thanks for the input, I have to learn how this system works, seems to take nothing off for ages then bites in and I get the point! I know, it's practice! and I have some old stuff to learn on!

Think I will be using the hand and eye milling process too, will be pretty close! ended up using a quadrant of timber to clamp the small gouges, Still not happy with the machine, but it is getting better. just a lot different to what I am used to so the "feel" is not there.

Have also done roughing gouges, and wide and narrow parting tools 6mm and 2mm today, actually pleased with the roughing gouge first edge I would say was better than I am used to. may have another go at the Skew tomorrow!
Cheers

Pete

Offline Chief

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Re: 1 day old Tormek, should I bin it?
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2012, 12:45:28 pm »
Day 3 and I have that sick feeling in the pit of my stomache, the one you get when you realise you have been a fool and been conned out of your hard earned. >:(

Looks like I will need to spend another $100 to get  $1 worth of stainless steel bent and welded to a 50c bolt, marketed as the BGM-100... so that I can shape my tools on my existing grinder :o so that's $1000 for a polishing machine and $100 for a piece of bent metal that I can then build into a jig support myself and use with my existing grinder which will heat the metal to damage point in the process of shaping it.... which will actually leave it sharp.... and a leather wheel on the other end of my grinder could have removed burr and polished the surface to a mirror shine for $10 ???

Very annoyed and disapointed in myself for falling for the hype.
Cheers

Pete

Offline Jeff Farris

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Re: 1 day old Tormek, should I bin it?
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2012, 12:46:39 pm »
Don't use the wood piece for the small gouges. Get rid of the black ring on the clamping pad. You'll either never need it, or hardly ever need it. It is a much more user-friendly clamping device once the ring is removed.

Use the whole surface of the stone, all the time. When you get a groove developed, the bottom of the groove is cutting fast, but the stone surface on either side of the groove can be somewhat glazed. This results in unexpected results.

Use the coarse side of the stone grader frequently and with firm pressure when trying to shape a tool.

Unless you need it for a project, put off the skew a little longer. Get a real solid feel for when the stone is cutting and when it needs attention before tackling any sort of reshaping on a skew. When you do tackle it, do the initial work in the vertical mount with the wheel turning into the edge. It cuts much, much faster that way.
Jeff Farris

Offline Jeff Farris

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Re: 1 day old Tormek, should I bin it?
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2012, 12:51:04 pm »
Day 3 and I have that sick feeling in the pit of my stomache, the one you get when you realise you have been a fool and been conned out of your hard earned. >:(

Looks like I will need to spend another $100 to get  $1 worth of stainless steel bent and welded to a 50c bolt, marketed as the BGM-100... so that I can shape my tools on my existing grinder :o so that's $1000 for a polishing machine and $100 for a piece of bent metal that I can then build into a jig support myself and use with my existing grinder which will heat the metal to damage point in the process of shaping it.... which will actually leave it sharp.... and a leather wheel on the other end of my grinder could have removed burr and polished the surface to a mirror shine for $10 ???

Very annoyed and disapointed in myself for falling for the hype.

Absolutely unnecessary. The Tormek will do any amount of shaping that you need to do, but you do have to learn to use the machine. The BGM-100 is more for those who can't or won't spend the money for the grinder, but want to use the jig system. The BGM-100 set-up with a dry grinder would be a luxury for a Tormek owner, not a necessity.
Jeff Farris

Offline RobinW

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Re: 1 day old Tormek, should I bin it?
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2012, 12:04:13 am »
After my T7 experiences trying to get sharp and square chisel and plane blades as detailed under the Hand Tool Woodworking part of the Forum, I attempted to sharpen some turning tools - roughing; spindle; bowl; flat skew and parting tool.

These are not the best quality tools on the market, but good enough to learn on. After watching the video and reading the manuals (several times!) I managed to get the idea what I should be doing.  This did take me some time until I thought I understood what I should be doing, and this was not a quick process!

I removed the black plastic ring to hold the gouges in the SV185. I than reshaped and sharpened them all satisfactorily in not too long a time. (Minutes not hours like I initially spent on my chisels and plane blades.)

I did not roughen up the surface of the wheel after re-truing it initially as I would rather take my time and let my eyes and brain absorb what is happening.  Likewise I kept the finger pressure light and kept the tools continually on the move, so no grooves in the wheel. I also kept applying felt tip marker to the bevel area so that I could see what was happening, and that is very helpful in seeing the re-shaping coming along.

I then turned 4 plinths (5 inch diameter) with dished centres and didn't need to touch up any edges so I must have got something right!

So whilst I had my doubts during my experiences with my first batch of chisels and plane blades, I got on much better with the turning gouges, and the next time it will be easier. So all I can advise is start again with one gouge, read the manuals etc until you really understand what should be happening and like any learning process take your time and practise, practise....





Offline Ken S

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Re: 1 day old Tormek, should I bin it?
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2012, 08:47:33 am »
Nice post, Robin.  We assume expensive tools will be easy to master, and quick, too.

I have done black and white photography most of my life.  When I bought my first 4x5 camera thirty years ago, I had a very difficult time "getting IT to work".  In hindsight, the camera was fine; the operator was inexperienced.

I often thought about keeping a "known good" negative ready to print.  It would be for times when things were not going well.  If the known good negative printed well, I would know that the equipment, paper and chemicals were working properly.

I think a "known good" tool (the previously discussed 3/4" chisel would be an excellent candidate) would also be useful.  During a problem sharpening session, just pop in the known good chisel.  If is sharpened well, the machine and grinding wheel could be ruled out as the problem.  If not, it would steer one toward the mechanical problem.

Your initial frustration has served you well, Robin.

Ken


Offline pennardesign

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Re: 1 day old Tormek, should I bin it?
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2012, 04:41:49 pm »
I just bought the holder for my dry 6" grinder about 10$ in your money and used the 'bent piece of stainless with a nut' from the Tormek! I always do any major reshaping on the 6" grinder then move to the Tormek system, yes I agree it does take a while to get used to. Stick with it I'm only about 6 weeks into mine. I watch the video that can with the turners kit to give some major help.

Offline Chief

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Re: 1 day old Tormek, should I bin it?
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2012, 03:09:19 am »
Thanks all for the replies, I am seeing a rep on Friday, maybe he can show me the error of my ways, stone is 7mm smaller than when I set it up, water tank is constantly full of grindstone, now with practice my main gouges are as sharp as they used to be freehand from a grindwheel (have only re-profiled a few so far).
Cheers

Pete

Offline TomC

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Re: 1 day old Tormek, should I bin it?
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2012, 01:27:55 am »
I read this thread a couple of days ago. I had T-7 system on order and thought about canceling my order after reading this. I got my machine late yesterday, delivered by UPS.  I played with it last night. I had to reshape two bowl gouges and one spindle gouge. I found it very easy to do. I did not even regrade the wheel. It took only about 15 to 20 minutes to reshape. I found it easier than a slow speed bench grinder. With the wet wheel grinding it is much slower and easier to control. Only have the system less than 24 hours I am so far very pleased.
TomC

Offline Rhino

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Re: 1 day old Tormek, should I bin it?
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2012, 06:23:42 pm »
I write this in support of Tormek.  It is a very nice sharpener.  I love it and enjoy sharpening.

It cost around $600 or $700.  If you buy all the jigs, it will cost another $600 or $700.  The price list and accessories are on the internet.  Going in, I have no illusions that it will grind everything without more jigs - unless you have the skill to do it freehand.  It won't do drill bits without a jig.  It can't do plane irons without a jig.  It can't do scissors without a jig.   The prices of jigs are all on the internet.  There are some things it cannot do well - like a heavily concave blade.  You can investigate before buying.

I can built the jigs myself but it is cheaper to buy them from Tormek.  If you can do it cheaper, you are free to try.  I have tried and posted my findings on this forum for fun.

It is a hobby, and like all hobbies, requires constant money.  Don't expect to buy one and never spend any more money.  If you are a professional, hopefully you have made a good business decision.  Also, the grinding wheels do not last forever.  It is a consumable.  I use about 7mm in 2.5 years so it is lasting a long time for me.

Also, if you already have a sharpening solution that works well for you and you can sharpen your tools in two minutes - you should not expect to improve with a Tormek.

Offline Ken S

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Re: 1 day old Tormek, should I bin it?
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2012, 03:37:30 am »
Learning to use a Tormek reminds me of something Ernie Conover said in his hand cut dovetail class.  As part of the class we all made Shaker candle boxes with hand cut through dovetails.  Needless to say, the dovetails in our first attempt were less than perfect.  Ernie suggested making fifteen candle boxes.  He assured us that if we worked carefully, by the fifteenth box, we would be proficient.

Instead of several days with the Tormek, buy it with the idea of trying it diligently for a year.  If after a year of steady use it doesn't seem to measure up, put it up on ebay and move on.  The year should eliminate operator error, or at least operator inexperience.

I don't expect the tormek to be my only piece of sharpening equipment.  I recently removed decades old head mushrooming from a couple splitting wedges.  I used my dry grinder with a Norton 3X 46 grit wheel. I am not convinced the Tormek can do a better job with the final stages of chisel back flattening and polishing than my water stones.  In fact, i'm not sure the leather honing wheel can match the 8000 water stone. (I admit this may be partially operator inexperience with the honing wheel)

I am convinced the Tormek can do many sharpening operations with far more precision and repeatability  than I can do by hand, and with much less strain on my hands. 

I recently started using the DBS-22 drill sharpening jig.  I was surprised how well the first bit turned out.  Not perfect, but far superior to what I could have done by hand. It came as no surprise that the next couple of bits were sharpened better than the first.  As I learn the routine and work diligently, my frill bit sharpening skills are growing.  Bit number three was very good.  Bit number 53 will be on target.

You are off to a good start, Tom.

Good points, Rhino.

Ken

Offline wrightp

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Re: 1 day old Tormek, should I bin it?
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2013, 06:14:17 pm »
I know this thread is kind of old, but I couldn't help but add my $.02.  After reading countless reviews of the Tormek, as well as other sharpening systems (which mostly read, "If you can't afford a Tormek, then this works well.."), I finally took the plunge.  I'm not the type to start out slow and make do for a while, so I bought the T7 with all the jigs except the drill bit sharpener and the miter blade sharpener.  I also bought the universal support jig that allows you to use some of the jigs with your "regular" bench grinder.  I watched all the videos I could get my hands on and read all the materials that came with my T7.  I have to say that I LOVE this machine!  From the first time I used it I achieved nearly perfect results.  If you're still considering buying a Tormek, JUST DO IT!  Quality is expensive and you truly get what you pay for.  The T7 is worth every penny. 
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 06:35:52 pm by wrightp »