Author Topic: putting a camber on hand plane irons  (Read 3545 times)

Offline mikegraw

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putting a camber on hand plane irons
« on: December 04, 2015, 05:48:14 am »
I like using hand planes but have always put a little camber on the blade edges when hand sharpening to prevent blade tracks.  The Tormek straight edge guide does a great job of getting the blade sharp and straight.  But I haven't figured out to put a camber on the plane iron edges using this system yet.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

mike

Offline Dakotapix

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Re: putting a camber on hand plane irons
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2015, 02:25:54 pm »
I did this once on a blade for a double iron 16" woodie that is to be used for initial prepping of rough lumber (scrub plane). First I established the geometry of the blade using the SV-76. Then I switched over to the SVD-110 tool rest and free handed the curve of the blade. In this case the camber was fairly large but I believe I could achieve similar results for smoothing blades using the tool rest. I suppose others might suggest exerting pressure on the edges of the SV-76 to achieve a slight camber.

I'm a bit of an oddball on this forum because I only use the Tormek to shape the blades and establish a hollow grind and then finish on regular water or oil stones.

Offline Ken S

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Re: putting a camber on hand plane irons
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2015, 11:55:59 am »
I routinely grind my bench planes with camber. I don't have a roughing plane. If I did, I would probably use the same method as dakotapix.

I put just around .002" (.005mm) camber on smoothing planes; perhaps .006 (.015mm) on the jointer plane; and around 1/16" (1.5mm) on my jack plane which I use for rougher work. My reference source is Christopher Schwarz' Handplane Book. I judge this by eye.

My plane blades are very old Stanleys, "the garden variety". I use a longer blade projection in the SE-76 to allow more pressure on one side and then the other side.

My bench planes are Stanley Bedrocks made in 1909. I bought them from the original owner in 1972. I have never used or examined the newer planes or blades. I knew the newer premium blades are thicker. I did not realize just how much thicker until someome brought me three very nice IBC blades to sharpen at the woodworking show. I definitely need some retraining on modern plane blades!

The Tormek SE-76 video does not mention camber. IMHO this is a glaring omission. Bench plane blades need camber to avoid making "plane tracks", the lines left on the wood by straight ground blades with no corner relief.

To return to my old complaint, we need a more in depth chisel and plane blade training video.

Ken

Offline Dakotapix

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Re: putting a camber on hand plane irons
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2015, 12:56:48 pm »
I use a longer blade projection in the SE-76 to allow more pressure on one side and then the other side.

That's a good tip, Ken. I plan to try that on my smoother blades.

Offline Stickan

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Re: putting a camber on hand plane irons
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2015, 03:08:29 pm »
http://tormek.com/media/448712/hb-10-en-v101-se-76.pdf

From the handbook, page 125 about chambers.

Sincerely,
 Stig
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 07:30:55 am by admin »

Offline Dakotapix

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Re: putting a camber on hand plane irons
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2015, 03:22:17 pm »
Noted and reviewed, Stig. Thanks for the reminder. My green 2000 machine is close to 18 years old and the se76 I now use was an upgrade purchased a couple years ago. I suspect the original jig would have worked the same way though.


 ;D
http://tormek.com/media/448712/hb-10-en-v101-se-76.pdf

From the handbook, page 125 about chambers.

Sincerely,
 Stig
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 07:31:06 am by admin »

Offline Ken S

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Re: putting a camber on hand plane irons
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2015, 03:23:03 pm »
Thanks. Actually, what I use is the TTS-100. I use the B setting(the closer hole) for chisels, where I want a shorter projection. I use the A setting for plane blades, which allows a longer projection length.

I place strips of blank label strips in the the gouge slots with marks for  different bevel angles. This method may not be high tech, however, it is consistent and repeatable. (This was the ancestor set up for the kenjigs.)

Ken

ps Stig, your post appeared just as I was ready to post. I thought the longer projection distance was a solid idea. It was straight from "The Gospel according to Torgny".

Offline mikegraw

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Re: putting a camber on hand plane irons
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2015, 10:41:00 pm »
Thanks for the input.  And Stickan, thank you for the info from the manual.  I actually have a Grizzly 8 inch water grinder but use some of the accessories.  Tried the TTS-100 but can't move the bar close enough to the wheel.  Thinking about getting an actual Tormek, but hesitate due to the price.  Do all the jigs work on the 4 and 7 Tormek?  Do any of you still use bench stones or some other type of sharpening method for your tools or just the Tormek?

Offline Elden

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Re: putting a camber on hand plane irons
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2015, 11:19:11 pm »
   The jigs do work on both machines. Regarding the price, I don't think you will find very many that feel the Tormek is way over priced after purchasing and using one. I do wish that I purchased a new one instead of a used one, however.
Elden

Offline Ken S

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Re: putting a camber on hand plane irons
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2015, 02:09:20 am »
Mike,

I think most of us probably have an assortment of other sharpening equipment. I do, although a lot of it doesn't get much use since I added the Tormek. Among my other often used sharpening "stuff" is an assortment of hand files. Once you get beyond the "bastard" files (correct name for the coarseness) which are the only ones carried in most hardware stores, you will find second cut and smooth files in a variety of sizes and shapes. My file drawer gets a lot of use.

I don't mean to be critical, merely curious. The Tormek seems to have a common perception of being expensive. Granted, Tormek equipment is not inexpensive. However, "expensive" compared to what? Someone investing in a good set of waterstones, such at Norton or Shapton, will have almost the cost of a Tormek, especially if a DMT diaflat plate is included. A set of Lie-Nielsen, Veritas, or Blue Spruce chisels can approach the cost of a Tormek, as can a comparable set of bench planes. How about a Starrett combination square or rule? A basic set of quality kitchen knives? A good set of quality HSS turning tools?

Before I purchased my Tormek TS-740 Work Station, I read the few reviews I could find. Most blasted the price. At $699, it is not inexpensive. However, compared to the nearest competitor, Kennedy chests, it is very reasonably priced and custom designed for the Tormek.

Admittedly, my comparison items are all top quality products, as is the Tormek. Tools, good and not so good, last a long time. My Stanley Bedrock planes are 1909 vintage. They are fine tools now, as they were in 1909. The Stanley Handyman plane I bought as a boy in 1961 is so so now, as it was then. Eventually most of us accumulate quite a collection of tools. I believe we are all better off to have fewer tools of first-rate quality.

Ken

ps The T4 and T7 are surprisingly similar. All the jigs fit both. They share a common handbook. I believe the T7 has some advantage with turning tools and planar blades. For most work, either is a good choice. After using a T7 and a T4, my favorite is both.



« Last Edit: December 31, 2015, 02:13:57 am by Ken S »

Offline mikegraw

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Re: putting a camber on hand plane irons
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2015, 05:03:55 am »
Thanks for the replies.

I understand what you say about the price.  I have a combo Mdt  diamond stone.  I also have a whole assortment of quality water stones and expensive honing jigs. They work okay but are mjigs.and not consistent no matter my method.  Plus the softer ones are constantly dishing out.  I have spent a considerable amount of money through the years on  sharpening items.

I was impressed with the concept of the Tormek and it makes sense.

I bought the grizzly unit a few years ago because I could afford a hundred dollars.  It is working okay and the couple of Tormek jigs that I found to work with it work great and are consistent.  I can't use the Tormek.jigs I would like since I started turning because I can't get the rod close enough to the wheel.

I could kind of afford the a Tormek on our limited budget now.  I am just having a hard time justifying spending the money when I have systems that work just not that well.

I remember an old woodworking adage that says buy a quality tool and you only cry once.  Buy inferior tools first and cry every time you have to replace it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2015, 05:16:24 am by mikegraw »

Offline Ken S

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Re: putting a camber on hand plane irons
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2015, 11:37:33 am »
Mike,

To use an overused expression, "been there; done that". I have probably spent as much on jigs and stones over the years which are no longer used as on my Tormek.

Just a suggestion: You say you can't get the bar close enough with your Grizzley unit to sharpen some of your turning tools with jigs. I am thinking specifically about the gouge jig. The "Touch N Turn"system for the Tormek is carefully developed. However, we are not limited to those particular jig settings. If you require a greater distance between the bar and the grinding wheel, you should be able to achieve the same bevel angle by using a greater projection distance of the gouge in jig from the bar. I am not the best math guy on the forum, however, the lengths of the triangle legs should be proportional.

I am not at all familiar with the Grizzley unit, so there may be other constraints. However, if you could use the Tormek gouge jig with a longer projection distance and more separation between the bar and the grinding wheel, it might work well for you.

First, determine a distance between the bar and the grinding wheel which works for you. Measure this with a combination square and/or make a spacer block. You will want this distance to be easily repeatable. (The kenjig I have described in the knife subforum does the same thing. You might want to do a search for the instructions I posted. I you can't find it, PM me, and I will email them to you.)

Once you have the bar to grinding wheel distance determined, use black marker on your gouge bevel and place the gouge in the Tormek gouge jig. Turn your wheel be hand to determine the correct projection length for your bevel angle. Make a simple wooden stop block, and you can return to this length readily. Watch the tormek you tubes on sharpening turning tools; the spacer and black methods are covered.

I am not an active turner, and I don't have familiarity with the Grizzley. If it helps you keep your gouges and perhaps other turning tools sharp and consistent, you are one step further along the way. Should you eventually purchase a tormek, you would already have the gouge jig.

Good luck, and do keep us posted. Don't be shy if you have more questions.

Ken


Offline mikegraw

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Re: putting a camber on hand plane irons
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2016, 04:45:20 am »
Ken. That is what I have been doing with the jigs that I can use with the Grizzly unit and it works fine.  There are some that just won't work due to tool length and other limitations of the unit.


Offline woodgeek

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Re: putting a camber on hand plane irons
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2020, 04:32:25 pm »
I just purchased a T-8 to because freehand grinding on my current cheap wet grinder is just too hard. The SE-77 jig that comes with the newer Tormeks is supposed to be an improved version of the SE-76 jig. Supposedly cambering a blade is easier now. I'll be giving it a try this weekend on a new blade that I bought for my Lie Nielsen no5.

Offline Ken S

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Re: putting a camber on hand plane irons
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2020, 11:39:18 pm »
I have cambered plane blades with both the SE-76 and SE-77. With the SE-76, the amount of camber was controlled by finger pressure. Uniformity was by eyeballing. For most work this was adequate. It was certainly as accurate as using bench stones and jigs.
The SE-77 allows for jig controlled cambering. For those who might not understand the purpose of cambering, it grinds an arc in the plane blade. The two edges of the blade are ground down enough to disappear during the cut. The high spot in the center protrudes enough to set the depth of the cut. A number five jack plane, usually used for the initial deeper cuts. It has most camber. The longer jointer plane normally is set to a cutting depth of around .005”.
A smoothing plane is normally set to .001”. The SE-77 allows setting controlled amounts of camber. There is still some skill involved.

All of my bench planes are old Stanleys with thinner blades. The thicker blades of the L-N planes will take longer to sharpen, however, the extra thickness helps eliminate chatter. They are deluxe tools!

Ken