Author Topic: Truing Procedure  (Read 9444 times)

Offline wootz

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Truing Procedure
« on: May 27, 2016, 02:20:40 am »
Jeff Farris wrote somewhere in this forum that the Truing Tool prototype didn't have as much play, but as users found the head too tight to move across, more play was added. I can imagine, that when Tormek later introduced the Japanese stone, it would be too costly for them to modify production line for TT-50, even if chipping was reported.

By now I've trued 6 stones (Japanese, SB, SG) using Ionut's approach, and the results are fabulous, minimal grooves and no edge chipping.
Below I detail my truing procedure, where I shamelessly use Ionut's ideas to reduce the Truing Tool play, and even wording, as why should I change a word in what had been said well enough.

- True on a stable non-vibrating base, e.g. for truing I move my Tormek to a different bench that is heavier and more stable than what I use for sharpening.

- Mark the shaft, the washer, and your grindwheels and always mount the stones aligning all these marks to compensate for manufacturing or wear imprecision that may result in non matching edges of your blade; so when you change the stone the grinding surface of the new mounted stone will match the other one in relation to the universal support. Doing so I don't end having to true the stones needlessly as I change them.
(Now and then I refresh the markings.)


- If the grindwheel  hasn't been used today, before truing let your Japanese stone run idle for about 30 min to soak water (SG or SB stone for 10 min).

- Locking down the truing tool on the Universal Support, press the Universal Support downwards over the left post with the adjusting wheel. Don't press left or right of that point. The Universal Support has a bit of play and the only reference point or surface that you can rely on is the adjusting wheel and the base in which the left post is being inserted. The Universal Support play translates on its horizontal bar into up to probably 2-3 degrees in the effective sharpening area. Because of that, if you apply pressure on the extremities you may start out of square from the beginning.
This step is stated in the Tormek Manual, but often overlooked.
Unlike shown in the manual, press with one finger only.


Remember to do the same each time you mount the Universal Support for sharpening.

- To minimise the TT-50 diamond head play, I used 2.5mm wide x 200mm long cable tie (a 150mm long may just suffice as well). You only need to tie it moderately, enough to back up the diamond housing to it's riding platform and to allow you to rotate the knobs.

(The ragged grindwheel edge you can see in this picture is from previous truing done before using the method I describe.)

- Do not rest your hands on the Universal Support or TT-50 while truing - only rotate the truing tool knobs with your fingers with no downwards pressure on them.

- Start from the side with the highest point on the stone. Turn the US adjusting wheel by 1/12 (half a digit) when adjusting the depth of truing.
Having finished the first run across the stone, lower the diamond tip by a quarter of the digit, and run in the opposite direction; you have to run in both directions because of the wear of the diamond tip by the end of the first run you finish somewhat higher.

- The manual suggests for the truing not going slower than 90 seconds, but with this modification I'd say spend at least  90 seconds, I usually spend 2 minutes to move across the stone.
While truing, do not pause and maintain the same speed.

- Lower the Universal Support on the stone to check they are parallel (remember to press over the left post with the adjusting wheel). I just take out the Universal Support with the TT-50 locked on it, and use another Universal Support for this so that I could resume truing if need be.

For declogging & cleaning Japanese stones I use the following (in order of preference):
- a diamond plate  in the Tormek Square Edge jig;
- Nagura stone;
- fine side of the Tormek grading stone, flat only, but never corners, and parallel to the wheel, not accross.

As the diamond plate I use the cheapest plates I could find on eBay; the one in the picture is 1mm thick  and cost me $5 delivered. Had to clamp it together with a plane iron on the top for rigidity.
#80 diamond plate for the #200 stone;
#400 diamond plate for the #800-1000 stone;
#1000 diamond plate for the #4000 stone (SJ).
Make sure the plate contacts the stone by its surface, not the end, and lightly press with fingertips.

The diamond plate is preferred because this method will keep the surface of the stone always parallel with the universal support.
A quote of Ionut's about the diamond plate: "In fact between sharpening when using finer stones I use this method to cleanup and flatten the grinding surface of the stone about 50 times until I will use the TT50 again to make sure the wheel is not out of round."


You will soon discover how much sharper your tools get.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 04:42:53 am by wootz »

Offline Jan

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Re: Truing Procedure
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2016, 09:48:15 am »
Wootz,

Thank you very much for posting detailed description of your truing procedure which incorporates Ionut’s ideas.  :)

It is well structured, and thanks the images, an easy understandable instruction list for truing. I especially resonate with the marking procedure for shaft, washer and wheel. I am always tormented when I have to remove quite recently trued grindstone. "No man ever steps in the same river twice." :(

There is only one minor point which attracted the attention of my overcritical mind. The sentence reads:

"- Drop US on the stone to check they are parallel. I just take out the Universal Support with the TT-50 locked on it, and use another Universal Support for this so that I could resume truing if need be."

I think you understand what I am afraid about when another Universal Support is used. I also have two Universal Supports, but when I am sharpening a really valuable knife or tool, I always use the same Universal Support for truing and sharpening. This effectively eliminates the effect of potential non-squarness of the Universal Support.  ;)

Once again, thanks for your very useful post.

Jan
« Last Edit: May 27, 2016, 12:42:52 pm by Jan »

Offline wootz

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Re: Truing Procedure
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2016, 10:57:47 am »
I was slack in that part, Jan, and stay corrected. Shortcuts kill precision, don't they?

As I and other new-starters kept repeating the same mistakes with truing, especially Japanese stone, I posted this procedure in the General section to ensure it gets the attention it deserves.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2016, 11:34:10 am by wootz »

Offline Ken S

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Re: Truing Procedure
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2016, 10:45:57 pm »
It is most unfortunate that Torgny Jansson passed away several years ago. As an engineer dedicated to his Tormek, he would have keenly appreciated our more technical recent posts.

Ken

Offline Ken S

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Re: Truing Procedure
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2016, 02:00:58 am »
Wootz has posted a very good suggestion. Small electrical ties ("Cable ties" to us old phone men) are very inexpensive and easy to work with. Trying the Wootz/Ionut suggestion will take only a minute to install. I suggest we all try it. Either we will love it, or not. Removing the tie takes only another minute at most. Let's go for it.

Ken

Offline Ken S

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Re: Truing Procedure
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2018, 11:48:57 am »
I think you understand what I am afraid about when another Universal Support is used. I also have two Universal Supports, but when I am sharpening a really valuable knife or tool, I always use the same Universal Support for truing and sharpening. This effectively eliminates the effect of potential non-squarness of the Universal Support.  ;)

Once again, thanks for your very useful post.

Jan
[/quote]

I have a very simple solution to using multiple universal support bars. I have several, including the US-103 which comes with the T4. It is 10mm shorter, to match the T4's 200x40mm grinding wheel. I made a white tape label with "T4” and wrapped it around the top of the nonthreaded vertical leg of the support bar. Labels with numbers or Roman numerals; different color electrical tape; or for just two bars, tape (or an electrical tie) and no tape or tie would make identifying different support bars easy.

Is Jan being too picky? Possibly, however, I have never known him to be wrong. I would prefer to follow his lead on this and be on the safe side.

From this same topic, Wootz, we all shamelessly borrow ideas. There is no shame it. In your case, you have borrowed from the best. Ionut is very experienced and innovative. He has moved on to other interests. I miss both him and his ideas.

Ken

Offline ericbcockerill

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Re: Truing Procedure
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2018, 02:36:10 pm »
I have recently acquired a second hand T3 which is in very good condition but arrived without the TT50 truing tool. So I bought one, but was disappointed when using it to experience vibration resulting in a very irregular wheel surface. Having looked on this forum for advice I tried the cable tie idea which improved things slightly. However, applying my engineering background to the problem I could see that apart from (in my opinion) the poor design of the diamond cutter carrier another reason was the Universal Support which waves about in the breeze at it’s free end! This is not a problem while sharpening tools but definitely is during truing operations.
I have mounted my machine on a stout wooden base and fitted an aluminium bracket to support the free end of the Universal Support. This has a removable and adjustable plate to allow for height adjustment. This has solved the vibration problem and I now can true the wheel surface perfectly and I am very pleased with the results of chisel and scissor sharpening.

Offline RickKrung

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Re: Truing Procedure
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2018, 05:19:52 pm »
I have recently acquired a second hand T3 which is in very good condition but arrived without the TT50 truing tool. So I bought one, but was disappointed when using it to experience vibration resulting in a very irregular wheel surface. Having looked on this forum for advice I tried the cable tie idea which improved things slightly. However, applying my engineering background to the problem I could see that apart from (in my opinion) the poor design of the diamond cutter carrier another reason was the Universal Support which waves about in the breeze at it’s free end! This is not a problem while sharpening tools but definitely is during truing operations.
I have mounted my machine on a stout wooden base and fitted an aluminium bracket to support the free end of the Universal Support. This has a removable and adjustable plate to allow for height adjustment. This has solved the vibration problem and I now can true the wheel surface perfectly and I am very pleased with the results of chisel and scissor sharpening.

Eric,

Thanks for posting this solution.  I have been bothered by that vibration - chatter - that results in a diagonal ridge pattern on the outer side of the stone.  Last winter, I developed a motorized truing tool that greatly reduced slop in the truing tool but cannot solve all of the vibration due to the design and function of the unsupported end of the USB.  I've been pondering a solution just as you have described.  Thanks for this and I may be motivated now to do similar. 

Rick
Quality is like buying oats.  If you want nice clean, fresh oats, you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse, that comes at a lower price.

Offline Elden

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Re: Truing Procedure
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2018, 10:00:02 pm »
Excellent idea! Thank you for posting it.
Elden

Offline mat450

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Re: Truing Procedure
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2019, 12:07:18 pm »
Jeff Farris wrote somewhere in this forum that the Truing Tool prototype didn't have as much play, but as users found the head too tight to move across, more play was added. I can imagine, that when Tormek later introduced the Japanese stone, it would be too costly for them to modify production line for TT-50, even if chipping was reported.

By now I've trued 6 stones (Japanese, SB, SG) using Ionut's approach, and the results are fabulous, minimal grooves and no edge chipping.
Below I detail my truing procedure, where I shamelessly use Ionut's ideas to reduce the Truing Tool play, and even wording, as why should I change a word in what had been said well enough.

- True on a stable non-vibrating base, e.g. for truing I move my Tormek to a different bench that is heavier and more stable than what I use for sharpening.

- Mark the shaft, the washer, and your grindwheels and always mount the stones aligning all these marks to compensate for manufacturing or wear imprecision that may result in non matching edges of your blade; so when you change the stone the grinding surface of the new mounted stone will match the other one in relation to the universal support. Doing so I don't end having to true the stones needlessly as I change them.
(Now and then I refresh the markings.)


- If the grindwheel  hasn't been used today, before truing let your Japanese stone run idle for about 30 min to soak water (SG or SB stone for 10 min).

- Locking down the truing tool on the Universal Support, press the Universal Support downwards over the left post with the adjusting wheel. Don't press left or right of that point. The Universal Support has a bit of play and the only reference point or surface that you can rely on is the adjusting wheel and the base in which the left post is being inserted. The Universal Support play translates on its horizontal bar into up to probably 2-3 degrees in the effective sharpening area. Because of that, if you apply pressure on the extremities you may start out of square from the beginning.
This step is stated in the Tormek Manual, but often overlooked.
Unlike shown in the manual, press with one finger only.


Remember to do the same each time you mount the Universal Support for sharpening.

- To minimise the TT-50 diamond head play, I used 2.5mm wide x 200mm long cable tie (a 150mm long may just suffice as well). You only need to tie it moderately, enough to back up the diamond housing to it's riding platform and to allow you to rotate the knobs.

(The ragged grindwheel edge you can see in this picture is from previous truing done before using the method I describe.)

- Do not rest your hands on the Universal Support or TT-50 while truing - only rotate the truing tool knobs with your fingers with no downwards pressure on them.

- Start from the side with the highest point on the stone. Turn the US adjusting wheel by 1/12 (half a digit) when adjusting the depth of truing.
Having finished the first run across the stone, lower the diamond tip by a quarter of the digit, and run in the opposite direction; you have to run in both directions because of the wear of the diamond tip by the end of the first run you finish somewhat higher.

- The manual suggests for the truing not going slower than 90 seconds, but with this modification I'd say spend at least  90 seconds, I usually spend 2 minutes to move across the stone.
While truing, do not pause and maintain the same speed.

- Lower the Universal Support on the stone to check they are parallel (remember to press over the left post with the adjusting wheel). I just take out the Universal Support with the TT-50 locked on it, and use another Universal Support for this so that I could resume truing if need be.

For declogging & cleaning Japanese stones I use the following (in order of preference):
- a diamond plate  in the Tormek Square Edge jig;
- Nagura stone;
- fine side of the Tormek grading stone, flat only, but never corners, and parallel to the wheel, not accross.

As the diamond plate I use the cheapest plates I could find on eBay; the one in the picture is 1mm thick  and cost me $5 delivered. Had to clamp it together with a plane iron on the top for rigidity.
#80 diamond plate for the #200 stone;
#400 diamond plate for the #800-1000 stone;
#1000 diamond plate for the #4000 stone (SJ).
Make sure the plate contacts the stone by its surface, not the end, and lightly press with fingertips.

The diamond plate is preferred because this method will keep the surface of the stone always parallel with the universal support.
A quote of Ionut's about the diamond plate: "In fact between sharpening when using finer stones I use this method to cleanup and flatten the grinding surface of the stone about 50 times until I will use the TT50 again to make sure the wheel is not out of round."


You will soon discover how much sharper your tools get.

Just discovered this post.  What an essential mod, using zip ties to take 'free play'out of diamond cutter head.  Addtionally, using diamond plates to grade and refresh my wheels has stopped the need to re-true stones as often.

Offline john.jcb

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Re: Truing Procedure
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2019, 04:13:16 pm »
Mat450, If you have a 2019 TT-50 the zip ties are no longer needed.

See this thread https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=4001.0

Everything else in this thread is still as relevant as when it was written a few years ago.
Sharpen the knife blade
Hone edge until perfection
Cut with joy and ease

Offline Ken S

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Re: Truing Procedure
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2019, 04:46:03 pm »
John, I agree.

I happen to have both models of the TT-50. I will keep the 2019 version in my ready access drawer, however, I would be just as happy with the older model. I don't presently have electrical ties on my older TT-50. If a notice a problem, I would install them.
Anyone purchasing a new TT-50 now should insist on getting the 2019 model. (Beware, most of the online photos show the older model.) I would suggest anyone happily using the older version continue with it. If you notice any chatter, it's your call. The new TT-50 costs $93 US. A pack of electrical ties costs less than $5.

Ken

Offline john.jcb

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Re: Truing Procedure
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2019, 05:22:16 pm »
Ken, would it be possible for you to post a picture of each point out what is different?

I imagine you are one of the few users that have both.
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Offline Antz

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Re: Truing Procedure
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2019, 09:01:19 am »
Well I tried the zip tie method and trueing my t4 at only 1/4 number at a time and still had chatter. It wasn’t as bad but still left a wavy horrible stone surface. Unusable in my opinion. I wasted 3.5mm of my grinding wheel (went from 198.8mm to 195.4mm)trying to get it nice and flat again and finally left it as good enough for fear of messing it up again. It’s still not flat like how I want it. It’s seems like once you get the “chatter” and start making wavy grooves horizontally acccross the face of the stone it becomes so frustrating to take them out. The trueing tool wants to follow the waves even when backed up with zip ties and just perpetuates the problem. Only solution is to take a deep cut and run the risk of chipping the edge of the stone. I become very frustrated, spent almost 45 minute trueing and still not perfect.

I don’t know if I have a defective trueing tool. Without the zip ties it has about 1/8” of play up and down. Or if I have a defective stone, or a bent shaft. I’m just confused as to why this keeps happening. Could it possibly be the rubber contact wheel out of round causing the shaft to not run straight? I think I’ll have to contact tormek support. Funny thing is I never started having this issue until I used the trueing tool about 7 times between my t8 and t4. From that point it’s been a nightmare.

I tend to think it’s the trueing tool as I had a similar problem last time I trued my t8.

Thanks,
Antz
« Last Edit: June 29, 2019, 09:26:39 am by Antz »
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Offline RickKrung

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Re: Truing Procedure
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2019, 09:38:42 am »
Chatter can be very aggravating and troublesome.  I speak from years of metal machining experience.  I've had the worst trouble with chatter when machining aluminum.  The only thing I know of for reducing or getting rid of chatter, once it has started is to go REALLY SLOW.  By slow in this context, I mean slowing down the cutter speed, to some incredibly slow crawls and that doesn't work all the time. 

With chatter on the SG and SB stones, I have had some chatter, but was able to get rid of it by using a very slow feed rate across the stone.  Initially, my truing tool had the zip ties.  I was still having trouble.  I developed a method of holding the truing tool in my right hand to try to dampen the vibrations.  That works reasonably well, but you have to be really careful to not put any pressure, downwards or upwards while the truing is going on.  Difficult to hold the position for 2-3 min., which is the typical time I use for single traverses. 

I read a thread on the forum started by someone who had built a support for the outboard end of the USB.  I don't recall who or when and have not searched for it.  This is an excellent approach and something most could probably do.  First trick is figuring out what to use to hold the USB. Second trick is figuring out how to make it adjustable as the microadjust lowers the USB for the next set of passes.  Then there is figuring out how to mount it to the bench or base of the Tx machine. 

I wasn't satisfied with just holding the USB, so I modified my truing tool to motorize it, but the mods include measures intended to reduce vibration.  Precision threaded shaft, closely machined shaft journals for near press fit with the ball bearings.  Fitting the cutter carrier with a delrin insert tapped with the shaft threads to try to reduce backlash.  I realize this is not an option for most, but it did solve the problem for me. 

I don't know that this will help you much.  I wish you well and hope you get something good from Tormek support. 

Rick
Quality is like buying oats.  If you want nice clean, fresh oats, you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse, that comes at a lower price.