Author Topic: Truing Procedure  (Read 9440 times)

Offline Ken S

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Re: Truing Procedure
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2019, 03:58:01 pm »
John, side by side photos and comparisons of the two TT-50 versions is an excellent idea. I will do that and try to have it posted sometime this weekend.

Antz, my very slow truing/dressing technique was a product of great frustration. My problem was glazing rather than being out of true. (I was reshaping a high speed steel turning gouge.) I had to use the truing tool so often that I dedicated a spare support bar to using it. (unnecessary most of the time). By the end of that project, I was very skilled with the truing tool. I could take both shallow and deep cuts with full control. It was like a Tormek boot camp, effective, but not very pleasant. There are better ways to learn.

A week in Sweden, under the watchful eye of an instructor like Stig, would be ideal. Using a well done in depth instructional video, like Tormek has produced for woodturners, is a strong second choice. Alan Holtham , Steve Bottorff, Knife Grinders (Wootz), and Sharpco come to mind as top tier you tubes.

Antz, I think your problem may be with your first pass. It sounds like later pass technique is fine. My gut feeling is that your first pass may be too deep. The first pass should just barely touch only the highest spots of the wheel. The diamonds should not touch most of the wheel. I don't see how one can cut gullies if the cutter doesn't make contact with the low spots.

As you become more proficient with truing, it should only take a few minutes. This will come with focused practice. Use your tuition money (your first grinding wheel) well. Knowledge and experience will make your future wheels work better and last longer.

Hang in there!

Ken

ps It seems logical that sharpening flat chisels and plane blades might tend to flatten the grinding wheel. The inverse is certainly true; gouges will certainly make grooves!

Offline Elden

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Re: Truing Procedure
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2019, 05:55:37 am »

I read a thread on the forum started by someone who had built a support for the outboard end of the USB.  I don't recall who or when and have not searched for it. 



https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=3053.msg24823#msg24823
Elden

Offline RickKrung

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Re: Truing Procedure
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2019, 06:09:41 am »

I read a thread on the forum started by someone who had built a support for the outboard end of the USB.  I don't recall who or when and have not searched for it. 


https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=3053.msg24823#msg24823

Elden, thanks very much for posting this link.  Funny that it is a post earlier in this very thread.  Clearly, I have not done this mod yet, but I think it would be a good idea to do it.  That chatter has always bothered me and it is so unnecessary. 

Rick
Quality is like buying oats.  If you want nice clean, fresh oats, you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse, that comes at a lower price.

Offline Elden

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Re: Truing Procedure
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2019, 06:28:17 am »
You are welcome Rick. I had not realized it was in this thread until you said so as I had gone around Robin Hood's barn to find it. I had to say to mysef, duh!
Elden

Offline Antz

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Re: Truing Procedure
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2019, 07:39:54 am »
Thanks Everyone for all your advice and ideas. Today I tried trueing my SG 200 again. I replaced the zip ties with some thicker stiffer ones, made sure all the locking knobs were extra tight, and started my first pass at the exact height of the wheel.

 I made a “PAINFULLY” slow pass, about 10 minutes. The diamond tooth was barley skimming the highest spots. There actually still was some chatter when I hit the high spots, so I had to slow down even further. There was still chatter with my reduced speed, so I found that if I held the USB very carefully with my pinky’s while turning the knobs with my pointers and thumbs it dampened the chatter somewhat.

 After the first pass I lowered the USB by about 1/5 of a number and started my second pass. Second pass was even more painfully slow (about 20 minutes), I used the techniques I learned from the first pass and held the usb with my pinky’s to dampen vibration, very careful not to put any downward or upward pressure. At any slight hint of chatter I slowed down until I was barley turning the knobs at all and applied a tighter grip with my pinky’s on the usb (still careful not to have any upward or downward pressure). Second pass had contact along the entire wheel. In the end I removed the USB with the trueing tool still attached Incase I had to do a third pass (which I wasn’t looking forward too) and checked the stone with a straight edge and it was finally flat and true. I sharpened one opinel to test it and it felt perfect. Now I’m beat.

I think part of the issue was the stone being out of true was actually causing the tt-50 to “ride” the stone. By that I mean it was actually “pushing” the USB up with the high spots and the rigidity of the usb wanting to push back down causing vibration and chatter. It develops almost a vibrational resonance effect. Once it starts it gets worse. That’s why manually bracing the usb helped get the results I was looking for. So my conclusion is the tt-50 has too much play and the usb is not rigid enough. As the operator you have to compensate for both those issues (zip ties/bracing usb).

I noticed my usb is not as sturdy on my t4 as on my t8, which is probably why I was mainly having this issue trueing my SG200. I think the weight of the t8 helps dampen vibration in the usb. Hopefully my findings can help anyone experiencing this issue. Special thanks to Rick for your specific advice which gave me the idea to brace the usb. Of course bracing it with your fingers as you true is not the ideal solution but it worked.

Now that the stone is finally true I feel that it won’t take nearly as long to true in the future. As long as I don’t let it get out of round as the tt-50 will tend to ride the high spots again.

Kind Regards and thanks to everyone,
Antz
« Last Edit: June 30, 2019, 09:27:59 am by Antz »
“But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
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Offline RichColvin

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Re: Truing Procedure
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2019, 04:48:37 pm »
All,

I've identified a different approach that I have found to be adequate.

After reading that Wootz noted how the Tormek SP-650 Grading Stone would not de-glaze the SB stone, I purchased a diamond plate to do that.  The one I purchased is the DMT D8X 8-Inch Dia-Sharp Continuous Diamond Extra-Coarse (220 mesh, 60 micron).  I got mine at Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001DZOKNY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 .

The "stone" is large (8" x 3" x 0.38"), and heavy (2.2 lbs).

What I've found is that it does a great job de-glazing the SB stone, but it also smooths out the surface after re-grading the stone (if that is desired).

And, being so course, it happens fast -- probably faster than any other method I've seen.  And, oddly enough, the surface left on the grindstone is quite smooth!

Anyway, just a thought.

Kind regards,
Rich
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Offline Ken S

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Re: Truing Procedure
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2019, 02:53:31 am »
Rich,
Your post seems like "the ghost of Christmas future" (apologies to Charles Dickens). The stone grader reflects the technology of the 1970s. It works as well now as it did then. However, our expectations and technology have moved on. I think we will see the newer technology becoming part of the Tormek universe. The game is already afoot. Rich, you are one of the pioneers.

Antz,
Your TT-50 difficulties puzzle me. Thirty five years as a telephone troubleshooter have shaped my thought pattern. I don't understand why things do not work for you. I also do not understand why things do work for me. You seem to be following the suggestions I have shared with you correctly. I have not held anything back from you. We should be getting the same results.
I really believe in the value of a forum. We will get to the bottom of this. I will be delighted when we resolve this, regardless of who adds the final piece of the puzzle. Your frustrations will benefit many future Tormekers.

Ken

Offline Ken S

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Re: Truing Procedure
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2019, 03:25:50 pm »
Antz,
I "called in the cavalry" (support). Here is their reply:

"The T-4 and T-8 is not the sensitive to vibration as the older T-3 and T-7.
I have read the topic and think his TT-50 may be defective.
If the axial play in the shaft is to large it cause the whole shaft to vibrate, not just the head.
Vi do not accept axial play more the 0,3 mm.
However there is some things that may be considered before we throw the ball on the TT-50.
 
The vibrations can be avoided with these procedures.
 
Use a maximum of 0.25 mm cutting depth. It represents one step on the micro adjust.
 
When lowering the universal support, press only at a point straight above the micro adjust.
Tighten the locking knobs firmly.
 
Feed always from outside of the stone and in.
 
Feed quickly across the stone. Use 30-40 seconds across the stone.
 
Stabilise the universal support with your hands during truing.
 
 
When truing a stone which already have a wavy surface as a result of vibrations, remove the waves with the coarse side of the stone grader SP-650 before you start truing."

Ken

PS If none of these measures, do not give up. Support will stay the course and not abandon you.
Do keep us posted.
 
« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 03:31:05 pm by Ken S »

Offline Antz

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Re: Truing Procedure
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2019, 08:10:15 am »
Just received a replacement tt-50 from Tormek. I emailed support and they agreed that what was happening with my tt-50 was not normal. They referred my case to Afinity tool (US importer). Affinity emailed me that same day and sent a replacement. The difference between my old tt-50 and the new replacement is night and day. The new tt-50 has less play and it worked perfectly. Nice smooth cut, no vibration or chatter. I did one pass at .25mm and it fixed the wavy surface that was still present from trueing with my old tt-50. Can’t say enough good things about Tormek support and Afinity support. Fast quick response and ver helpful. Tormek really stands behind their products. First rate products and service.  Big thanks.

Antz
“But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:57‬ ‭

Offline Ken S

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Re: Truing Procedure
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2019, 12:21:13 pm »
Well done, Antz!!!

Two of the things I find commendable about Tormek are 1) their willingness to go the extra mile with product support and 2) their willingness to redesign a product which was the state of the art. I will cite several examples of this: The most obvious example is the new 186 gouge jig. When I reviewed the new 186 design, I recommended it even for users presently quite happily using the earlier 185 design.

The new SE-77 square edge jig incorporates adjustable, controlled camber. This is a game changer for hand plane blades.

Tormek felt that the quite reliable TT-50 truing tool could be improved by reducing potential chatter. The new design accomplishes this. The state of the art has been advanced.Tormek continues to evolve.

Keep posting, Antz.

Ken

Offline Georgie

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Re: Truing Procedure
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2019, 06:02:12 pm »
Just received a replacement tt-50 from Tormek....The difference between my old tt-50 and the new replacement is night and day. The new tt-50 has less play and it worked perfectly. Nice smooth cut, no vibration or chatter. I did one pass at .25mm and it fixed the wavy surface that was still present from trueing with my old tt-50...

Antz

Outstanding!! Antz that's a great story in more ways than one...when I was reading your post and got to "30 minutes for a pass" I was thinking "really"?? WTH?  Purely from an academic standpoint it makes me wonder where the fault lay in the original TT-50... Like Ken S I have a long history of complex trouble shooting (mine being air monitoring instrumentation) and the "why?" has always intrigued me. Its great its fixed but it would be interesting to "dissect" your old one with a micrometer and compare it with the new simply to see where the fault lay...stamping? assembly?  Regardless its fantastic you're back in the game!

The fact is that I'm impressed with Tormek's response to both you and to Ken's inquiry...I currently have one of the higher end Wicked Edge systems with a full gamut of different paddles but a Tormek has always impressed me. I'm in the process of budgeting for my own T-8. The fact they are so responsive and the group here is so welcoming and knowledagable (without ego I might add) only encourages me to make the full investment.

George

Offline john.jcb

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Re: Truing Procedure
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2019, 12:32:38 am »
I have not had an opportunity to contact customer service but from all that I have read they appear to be dedicated to making sure the customer is satisfied. I think most of us have used the equipment without issue as the number of problems raised does seem small.
Sharpen the knife blade
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Offline Ken S

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Re: Truing Procedure
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2019, 01:16:54 pm »
John,

When the T4 was introduced in 2014, I had the opportunity to meet personally with the Head of Tormek Support and a representative of the US importer. In our conversation, I asked some polite but very pointed questions about the T4 and warranty service. My main concern was the "thirty minute limitation" with the T4's motor. I asked them point blank what Tormek would do if my T4 motor burned out after six and a half years (of the seven year warranty).

Their answer was quite clear. If this should happen:
1) Contact support
2) Support would send me prepaid ((by Tormek) shipping label
3) Tormek or the importer would replace or repair whatever was necessary (except normal wear to the grinding wheel) and promptly return my machine fully restored to me at no charge.

I believed them at the time. That believe has been reinforced by the few posts over the years which require warranty service. Tormek is a solid company which stands by its products with excellent customer service. Incidentally, I do not recall a single post about someone burning out the motor of a T4.

I should note that Tormek gets few warranty repairs. The product is solid and manufacturing standards high.

I do not mean to give the impression that Tormek gets special treatment with me. Whenever I recommend Tormek support, I always encourage the member to post his results, whether favorable or unsatisfactory. I would not delete a fairly written legitimate complaint. In fact, I have posted some very negative complaints about some of the deceptive online pricing I have encountered. Many of our members are just starting to consider purchasing a Tormek. I want purchasing a Tormek to be a happy experience for them. I want them to receive good, honest advice from the forum to help make their Tormek experience positive. I consistently recommend that new inexperienced buyers buy new machines from an authorized dealer to get the benefits of Tormek's warranty.

In my opinion, the market for used Tormek equipment is generally overpriced. However, like many of the longtime forum members, I would not hesitate to buy an older Tormek at the right price. I want this forum to be the best resource for Tormek users and buyers for both new and older products. Please note that we are not a swap meet. What we swap is experience.

Ken

Offline Elden

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Re: Truing Procedure
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2019, 06:26:17 pm »
Bringing this topic back to the front.
Elden

Offline arnman

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Re: Truing Procedure
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2019, 12:36:21 am »
I never seem to be able to keep my stone round after a few iterations of grading between fine and coarse.

I was going to try using the diamond plate method as shown in Wootz's post.  I already have a few diamond stones (the heavier type, not the thin credit card type). 

This might be a dumb question, but I would rather find out the easy way than the hard way.  Is there a reason why the heavier stones, clamped in the square jig, would not work?  Would using them for stone grading affect them for other uses?