Author Topic: Universal support  (Read 5083 times)

Offline Joechippy

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Universal support
« on: November 15, 2016, 12:19:35 am »
Hi all, just after buying myself a t8 mostly for sharpening turning tools. My question is would most turners hone there tools after sharpening and if so why is the universal support not made so it extends over the grinding week and honing wheel then you would not have to take it out turn it around and reset the distance from wheel it makes spence to me.imterested to see what others think. Joe

Offline RichColvin

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Re: Universal support
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2016, 02:14:54 am »
Joe,

I'm a turner who has used a Tormek for sharpening for about 15 years. 

I don't hone my turning tools before using them.  I find that the quickness of the resharpening is critical. To also hone would cause too much time to be spent, & would probably make me not sharpen as often as I should.  Remember, when turning you're putting a lot of wood past the tool's cutting edge :  around 1,570 feet/minute.  And, at that speed, the tool dulls quickly.  Better to resharpen often. 

The general approach is to resharpen before the last pass.  It could make sense to hone at this time, but probably not. 

All-in-all, I've not found the need to hone turning tools.

As for the universal rest question, well the stone's size changes as you use it, so the distance would not be consistent.  Better to set the distance to each wheel separately with a jig (like the TTS-100), or make one by hand (like the Ken Jig).

If you've not gotten them yet, invest in the SVD-186 & the SVS-50 jigs

You'll be happy you got the Tormek.  It's worth the investment.  Use it to sharpen often.  It will make the turning easier & far more fun.

Kind regards,
Rich
« Last Edit: November 15, 2016, 02:17:27 am by RichColvin »
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Offline SharpenADullWitt

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Re: Universal support
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2016, 08:43:13 am »
There are add on, profiled wheels that are used more for gouges.  But if the support bar extended over both wheels (and the add on wheels), then it would have to be pulled out for other tools.  (for instance, when I sharpen a knife, I tend to do some honing and check it to see if I need more)
Favorite line, from a post here:
8)

Yeah you know Tormek have reached sharpening nirvana when you get a prosthetic hand as part of the standard package :/)

Offline Jan

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Re: Universal support
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2016, 09:48:34 am »
Welcome to the forum Joe!  :)

As SharpenADW said, an USB extending over both wheels would be useful only when the diameters of both wheels are the same, but it is very rarely true.

Setting the USB for a desired edge angle can be significantly speed up and simplified by using suitable spacer block defining the distance between the wheel and the USB.

Special spacer block for knife jig was invented by Ken and is called kenjig. My modification is shown in the attached picture. One side of my double-ended kenjig defines the distance to the grindstone, the other to the honing wheel.

The use of two USBs further speeds up the knife sharpening and honing. :)

Jan
« Last Edit: November 15, 2016, 09:57:13 am by Jan »

Offline Ken S

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Re: Universal support
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2016, 10:52:40 am »
Joe,

Welcome to the forum. There is a reason that the universal support does not extend over the leather honing wheel as well as the grinding wheel. The universal support may be used either grinding into or away from the grinding wheel. If the universal support was extended to cover both the grinding wheel and the leather honing wheel, it could be used in the grinding into position with the leather wheel, thus digging in and ruining the wheel. Tormek, like any manufacturer, must be concerned with product safety.

I totally agree with Rich about the SVD-186 and SVS-50 jigs. Keep in mind that both jigs have been recently redesigned. I highly recommend purchasing the newer version of both. The SVD-186 gouge jig is substantially improved over its predecessor, the SVD-185. Do not be tempted to save a little money by purchasing the older jig. It works as well as it ever did, which is very good. The new jig just works much better. In my review of the SVD-186, I even recommend purchasing it as a replacement for those who already have the SVD-185. Do yourself a favor and start out with the best.

The new SVS-50 is machined of zinc instead of aluminum and holds a slightly larger tool. For new purchases, I definitely recommend it over the older version (same jig number). Those who already have the older model will probably not notice much difference in performance.

I would add one initial essential purchase, the Woodturner's Instruction Box. (TNT-300). I consider this Tormek's best instruction kit. It has a booklet by Torgny Jansson, inventor of the Tormek, which is a fine reference. It also contains a very in depth DVD done by Jeff Farris. The DVD is easy to navigate, and has separate sections for both sharpening and using the various turning tools. It is a must haver reference for turners, and highly recommended for even non turning Tormek users. Unlike Rich, I am not an active turner, however, I have found the DVD a very useful Tormek reference. I have watched the DVD numerous times, and have always learned something.

I watched the beginning and bowl gouge sections before typing this post. I had forgotten that Jeff recommended beginning with the grinding wheel graded fine for touch up sharpening. The DVD covers so much more than the online shorter videos.The Turner's Instruction Box is well worth the $35 US price.

With all due respect to Rich and his turning experience, (I have spent a couple enjoyable afternoons with Rich in his shop.), I would suggest starting out using the DVD method of including honing with your turning tools. As you gain experience with your Tormek, you can try not honing and see if you notice a difference.  You may decide to just sharpen like Rich. You may feel more comfortable with a honed and polished edge. Your decision may be influenced by how much time you wish to spend sharpening. You may find the edge off the grinding wheel works very well for initial turning and that you may wish to polish the edge for the finishing cut. Please post your thoughts along the way.

I agree completely with Rich's advice of sharpening often. With the TNT-100 setting tool, sharpening is fast. A sharper tool is a pleasure to use and requires less sanding.

Enjoy your new Tormek!

Ken

Offline Joechippy

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Re: Universal support
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2016, 10:08:04 pm »
Thanks all for you replies. I've been turning for about four years or so just as hobby. I am part of a club and meet once a month and hold a competition so that means i turn at least every week. I had been using a bench grinder and was looking to buy a cbn wheel for it as my white wheel was getting smaller and as a result I was grinding below centre and it was very agrsive and burn marks on tools and after looking around and talking to few friends in our club I went the hole jog and got Tormek with the Woodturning kit so I have all the jigs, it takes a bit of getting used to checking the book and settings but soon be second nature and up to speed. Sharp tools make the job so much easier
I work as a carpenter so over Christmas holidays all my chisels will get the Tormek treatment to. Chisels aren't used as much now as when I serviced my time it all router and electricity planner
Thanks again for all responds and I'll be checking on often.
Joe.

Offline Stickan

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Re: Universal support
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2016, 10:33:07 am »
Hi,
Just som input regarding honing woodturningtools. Nick Agar, a very skilled turner, actually hone his tools instead of sharpening on the stone every time. Of course he needs to use the stone but with the leatherwheel and Tormek compund, he can keep the edge very sharp using the honingwheel a cople of times before he needs to use the stone.
This gives him less work with sandpaper as the last cuts are so fine.

Best,
Stig

Offline RichColvin

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Re: Universal support
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2016, 11:50:21 pm »
Stig,

I just watched the Nick Agar video (https://youtu.be/bpIXozlTJ0E) again, and I stand corrected. 

As I am doing some turning tomorrow I'll follow this sage advice.  I'll let you know how it goes. 

Kind regards,
Rich
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You are born weak & frail, and you die weak & frail.  What you do between those is up to you.

Offline Ken S

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Re: Universal support
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2016, 02:08:24 am »
Go for it, Rich!

Please post your results.

Ken

Offline RichColvin

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Re: Universal support
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2016, 04:42:25 am »
Well, I tried it and I'm not sold on the idea of honing turning tools.

Today, I rough turned 4 bowls from green, recently harvested apple wood.  These are the issues I noted :
  • I have one bowl gouge that has been ground with an Ellsworth shape (JS 6, P 75, hole A).  Because of the long projection (75 mm), I couldn't hone the right wing on the gouge.  As I use both wings whilst turning, this wasn't terribly useful.
  • I found that honing took much longer than a quick touch-up on the stone.   I've found that I can get it quickly sharp by two passes on the whole surface, & I'm back to work again.
  • I didn't notice a big difference in the surface of the wood for the honed surface over the unhoned one.  I don't hone very often, especially as I now also have an SJ stone, so I may simply be bad at it :  I don't discount that idea.

As I was merely rough turning the bowls to allow them to dry over the coming year, I wasn't terribly concerned with the surface. 

I think that, when I take the bowls down and final-finish them, I might try sharpening the tools on the SJ stone & see how much difference that makes.

Kind regards,
Rich
« Last Edit: November 23, 2016, 04:50:25 am by RichColvin »
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Rich Colvin
www.SharpeningHandbook.info - a reference guide for sharpening

You are born weak & frail, and you die weak & frail.  What you do between those is up to you.

Offline Ken S

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Re: Universal support
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2016, 11:36:52 am »
Rich,

Thanks for posting your results. There is nothing like "news from the trenches". I also think you are wise to keep the jury out for some areas.

My turning knowledge is limited to study and two very good hands on classes with Ernie Conover many years ago. i am leaning toward thinking the question of honing or not honing turning tools may not be a simple yes or no. A better answer may depend on several factors including the stage of the turning (wet or dry shaping); the direction of the grain; and, perhaps, the species of wood being turned.

I remember holding the turned piece done by a woodturning club in Hartville. The Affinity Tool team (representing Tormek) had provided the club with a fully honed gouge for the project. The turning was very smooth. To my untrained eye, it did not look like it needed sanding. Unfortunately, the group did not turn a control piece with just a ground edge on the gouge. That would have provided a much more accurate test.

When factoring in the extra time spent honing, I think it is necessary to also factor in any reduced time required for sanding (if any).

Carrying my thought forward from another topic, (using two chisels for dovetail cutting and stopping only to sharpen both of them), for projects where time is of the essence, using two gouges might make sense, stopping to sharpen both of them instead of just one.

Combining some ideas: If we start by having the grinding wheel graded fine, as recommended by Jeff Farris in the Tormek turning DVD (or graded in the middle range, approximately 600 grit, as used by Stig for knives) Then, make the last pass over the grinding wheel very light, as recommended by Stig for other tools and well photographed by Grepper in a recent topic.

At this point, we have a reasonably polished edge with essentially no extra time involved. We can either stop here or continue honing. The honing/polishing process should take less time because the finish is finer starting the process.

I hope the above makes better sense than sentence structure.

Joe, I hope we haven't lost you along the way.

Ken

Offline RichColvin

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Re: Universal support
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2016, 02:26:10 am »
Latest update:   I sharpened my skew using the SJ stone.  The edges were mirrors. 

When I turned a piece of walnut, I saw no real difference in the wood surface.  I did notice the extra time required, and will thusly revert to using the SB stone. 


By the way, I asked on an AAW blog about honing and was overwhelming told that most use a 180 grit CBN wheel.  So, I guess the roughly graded SB or SG stone (220 grit) easily beats that. 

Rich
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www.SharpeningHandbook.info - a reference guide for sharpening

You are born weak & frail, and you die weak & frail.  What you do between those is up to you.

Offline Ken S

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Re: Universal support
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2016, 03:27:19 am »
Rich,

Are you primarily a bowl or spindle turner? I have read that honing is more beneficial for spindle turners.

Ken

Ps The next time we get together, I will bring my new 180 grit CBN wheel to test drive.

Offline RichColvin

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Re: Universal support
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2016, 05:10:29 pm »
Ken,

I usually don't do spindle turning; however that day I was.  I'd started from a piece of wood that was already rounded, and was simply moulding the shape to be what I needed.

I was making handles for my metal lathe's cross slide (the old ones didn't freely rotate as I wanted).  The picture below doesn't show the attempts made with the honed skew; rather they simply show what I made.

Rich






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Rich Colvin
www.SharpeningHandbook.info - a reference guide for sharpening

You are born weak & frail, and you die weak & frail.  What you do between those is up to you.

Offline Ken S

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Re: Universal support
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2016, 12:57:21 pm »
Rich,

I think your new wooden handles would be a pleasing warmer tactile difference from metal.

Ken