Author Topic: Tips for the Japanese Waterstone...  (Read 4209 times)

Offline cbwx34

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Tips for the Japanese Waterstone...
« on: September 28, 2017, 09:40:36 pm »
Any tips for using the Japanese Waterstone?  Being relatively new, thought I'd start a thread and see what some of you had.

Here's mine to start.  A tip I got from hand waterstones... a fine "rust eraser" like the one in the attached picture, does a decent job of removing the 'black' from the stone, without altering the stone's finish, and minimal (if any) stone wear.


Offline Ken S

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Re: Tips for the Japanese Waterstone...
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2017, 09:57:01 pm »
Thanks for starting an interesting topic. Several years ago, a similar topic surfaced. Someone recommended a nagura stone, normally used to create a slurry with fine waterstones (4000 grit and finer). I purchased one; they are inexpensive.

I have actually had good luck using the TT-50 truing tool. Take very light cuts and advance slowly.

I will get my nagura stone and SJ out soon and report.

Again, good topic, CB.

Ken

Offline RichColvin

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Re: Tips for the Japanese Waterstone...
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2017, 12:08:35 am »
Ken let me use his SJ stone before I bought one.  I used his Nagura stone & it worked greatly. 

I've not gotten around to buying a Nagura stone for my SJ stone, but I find that the stone grader works well. 

Rich
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Offline cbwx34

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Re: Tips for the Japanese Waterstone...
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2017, 12:35:30 am »
The rust eraser tip was from a guy who previously used a Nagura stone (so have I on regular waterstones).  A Nagura can alter the finish (which can be good or bad).  Oh yeah, the rust eraser is much cheaper.  The stone grader can alter the finish (and wear the stone).

The cleaning can be done as needed... even during a sharpening session.

I wouldn't use the TT-50 just to clean up a stone... bit overkill IMO, and can't easily be done during sharpening.

Give it a try!  (You guys are a tough crowd....).  :)

Offline Ken S

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Re: Tips for the Japanese Waterstone...
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2017, 03:59:52 am »
Hey....... :)  we aren't such a tough crowd. I just ordered your rust eraser. I'm always open to new Tormek related ideas.

Thanks for the tip.

Ken

Offline cbwx34

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Re: Tips for the Japanese Waterstone...
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2017, 07:00:25 pm »
Tip # 2:   Make a final, very light pass on either side of a knife, at a 2-3 deg. higher angle.... not enough to create a microbevel... it's just enough that it really cleans up the edge, and really puts a fine very sharp edge on.  The fine grade of the SJ wheel really excels at this.   8)

Anyone ever try the rust eraser?

Offline Ken S

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Re: Tips for the Japanese Waterstone...
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2017, 07:45:14 pm »
CB,

I think making the last pass a very light one is a universally good tip. With any stone coarser than the 4000 grit SJ, I would suggest keeping the bevel the same. You may have a good idea with the SJ. I will try it and the rust eraser during my next session using the SJ. (The rust eraser has been patientlywaiting in my top drawer.)

Keep thinking!

Ken

Offline cbwx34

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Re: Tips for the Japanese Waterstone...
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2017, 06:10:22 pm »
Actually, in this thread, wootz recommends lowering the angle slightly to finish the edge.

So, Tip #2.5... try both ways, and see what works best for you.  ;)

Offline Jan

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Re: Tips for the Japanese Waterstone...
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2017, 10:26:26 pm »
CB, Wootz recommends to "lower the US by 1 digit". One digit of the micro adjust is equal to lowering the US by 0.25 mm (0.01"). This will decrease of the edge angle (for typical setting of T7 or T8) by some 0.15° to 0.2° only.

Lowering the US will not create a microbevel, but on the contrary protect the very edge apex by preventing its contact with the SJ stone.  ;)

Jan

Offline cbwx34

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Re: Tips for the Japanese Waterstone...
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2017, 03:25:43 am »
CB, Wootz recommends to "lower the US by 1 digit". One digit of the micro adjust is equal to lowering the US by 0.25 mm (0.01"). This will decrease of the edge angle (for typical setting of T7 or T8) by some 0.15° to 0.2° only.

Lowering the US will not create a microbevel, but on the contrary protect the very edge apex by preventing its contact with the SJ stone.  ;)

Jan

Yup... I saw his other post... thought it was worth mentioning.  I think wootz and I have a different approach to sharpening.  It's why I suggest trying both, and see what works.

(Or, maybe lowering an angle in Australia = raising it in the U.S.).   ;)

Thanks for the info on the angle change with the micro-adjust.  Good info.

Offline wootz

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Re: Tips for the Japanese Waterstone...
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2017, 06:37:11 am »
There is nothing wrong with micro-beveling, and many Tormek users apply it, even though Tormek itself says it is not necessary on their grinders.
Just I never could make it work for me with the SJ.
Maybe really because "... lowering an angle in Australia = raising it in the U.S."
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 06:43:12 am by wootz »

Offline RickKrung

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Re: Tips for the Japanese Waterstone...
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2017, 02:43:02 am »
I picked up an SJ stone and a second grading stone today at Woodcrafters in Portland, OR, USA.  Being a relative novice, and having just bought an SB stone, primarily for drill sharpening, I was going to wait on the SJ.  But I was killing time while my daughter and granddaughter were at a science and industry museum this morning and as I perused the Tormek rack, there it was, saying "take me home". 

So, now I'm paying more attention the the SJ threads and comments.  Where can I get the rust eraser and Nagura stone? 

Rick
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 02:50:43 am by RickKrung »
If you want nice clean, fresh oats, you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse, that comes at a lower price.

Offline wootz

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Re: Tips for the Japanese Waterstone...
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2017, 03:06:21 am »
Hi Rick - you don't need either, believe me.
Many had advocated diamond plates for conditioning the wheels after truing and cleaning in between, but it took me time to recognize all the benefits of it.
Don't be like me, and take this shortcut.

#400 diamond plate for the SG or SB wheel graded to #800-1000;
#1000 diamond plate for the #4000 SJ wheel.

A #1000 diamond plate  in the Tormek Square Edge jig is the best solution for declogging SJ.
As the diamond plate I use the cheapest plates I could find on eBay; the one in the picture is 1mm thick  and cost me $5 delivered. Had to clamp it together with a plane iron on the top for rigidity.
The diamond plates do wear with use on the stone, please do not use the expensive DMT or Atoma for this.



IMPORTANT: Make sure the diamond plate contacts the stone by its surface, not the end, otherwise it will chip the wheel corners.

The full thread: https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=3053.msg16372#msg16372

« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 03:13:25 am by wootz »

Offline RichColvin

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Re: Tips for the Japanese Waterstone...
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2017, 03:52:13 am »
Where can I get the Nagura stone? 

I got mine at Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0037M4R7A/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 ).

I haven't tried Wootz' recommendation.   Sounds promising.

Rich
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 03:54:35 am by RichColvin »
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Rich Colvin
www.SharpeningHandbook.info - a reference guide for sharpening
www.OTBoK.info - help those getting started in ornamental turning -- to make that journey easier.

You are born weak & frail, and you die weak & frail.  What you do between those is up to you.

Offline RickKrung

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Re: Tips for the Japanese Waterstone...
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2017, 06:21:12 am »
Hi Rick - you don't need either, believe me.
Many had advocated diamond plates for conditioning the wheels after truing and cleaning in between, but it took me time to recognize all the benefits of it.
Don't be like me, and take this shortcut.

#400 diamond plate for the SG or SB wheel graded to #800-1000;
#1000 diamond plate for the #4000 SJ wheel.

A #1000 diamond plate  in the Tormek Square Edge jig is the best solution for declogging SJ.
As the diamond plate I use the cheapest plates I could find on eBay; the one in the picture is 1mm thick  and cost me $5 delivered. Had to clamp it together with a plane iron on the top for rigidity.
The diamond plates do wear with use on the stone, please do not use the expensive DMT or Atoma for this.

IMPORTANT: Make sure the diamond plate contacts the stone by its surface, not the end, otherwise it will chip the wheel corners.

Thank you, Wootz. 

I recall seeing the thread you reference, but as I said, I'm only now really starting to pay attention.  I'll need to go read that thread more thoroughly.  What do you suppose is the physical process that is occurring during the conditioning/cleaning/declogging with the diamond plates?  Especially as it differs from the other solutions proffered.  Are we talking about steel particles that are adhered to the stone surface or embedded in the stone matrix?  I expect both. 

I'd ask the same of others who have advanced methods.  What is happening with the rust eraser, the Nagura stone, the soaking in water?  I'll state my assumption about the stone grader: it breaks down the stone matrix, releasing adhered and embedded steel particles.  There has to be a small amount of wear on the stone. 

I don't get at all how simply soaking the stone in water removes steel particles unless it simply rusts them away, which I would think would leave rust stains. 

I'll offer an example.  There is a brick of soft rubbery material that is used to de-clog wood sanding disks and belts.  It is soft enough to wear away significantly, but it is sticky enough to pull clogged wood particles out of the sander media.  There can hardly be any wear on the sander media, but works very effectively. 

Rick
If you want nice clean, fresh oats, you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse, that comes at a lower price.