Author Topic: Another way to honing with Tormek  (Read 6485 times)

Offline Sharpco

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Another way to honing with Tormek
« on: October 23, 2017, 04:41:43 am »
I don't like the PA-70. because.....

1. The powder falls.
2. When touching the surface, the black compound is on my hand.
3. The residue must be wiped off the blade.

So I am looking for something else to use on the Tormek leather wheel. For example, Bark river CBN Emulsion, DMT Diamond spray, etc ...

What do you think is the best abrasive that can be applied to it?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 05:20:28 am by sharpco »

Offline wootz

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Re: Another way to honing with Tormek
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2017, 05:39:20 am »
Tormek's honing paste is cleverly formulated for Tormek wheel - first, it has just the right amount of oil - you won't over-oil your leather wheel using it, and second, its breakable abrasive particles give you the right mix to use after both the coarse #220, and fine #1000 wheel.

You can experiment with other compounds, I can tell you what you should avoid:
- oil-based pastes and emultions, like diamond pastes - they will over-oil the wheel;
- water-based pastes and emultions (CBN, diamond) - water hardens the leather, not good.

Quality wax-based polishing compounds are fine, but have no advantage over Tormek's, as they feature all you complain of.

Alcohol-based diamond suspension is fine, as the alcohol evaporates quickly; after it dries off you will need to rub crystals into the leather with little oil.

Offline cbwx34

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Re: Another way to honing with Tormek
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2017, 06:15:19 am »
If you're running a sharpening business, you might consider an alternative to even using the leather wheel for honing. 

Look at Steve's website or wootz's website for ideas.
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Offline Sharpco

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Re: Another way to honing with Tormek
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2017, 11:55:47 am »
wootz.

Thank you for sharing your experience.

By the way, I saw your leather wheel with green compound on your website. Is there another reason to use Green Compound instead of PA-70, besides grit?

And where is this compound sold? And I would be very grateful if you let me know how to apply it to the wheel.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 11:58:38 am by sharpco »

Offline Sharpco

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Re: Another way to honing with Tormek
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2017, 12:03:23 pm »
cbwx34.

Thank you.  ;)

Offline cbwx34

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Re: Another way to honing with Tormek
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2017, 04:45:39 pm »
Tormek's honing paste is cleverly formulated for Tormek wheel - first, it has just the right amount of oil - you won't over-oil your leather wheel using it, and second, its breakable abrasive particles give you the right mix to use after both the coarse #220, and fine #1000 wheel.

You can experiment with other compounds, I can tell you what you should avoid:
- oil-based pastes and emultions, like diamond pastes - they will over-oil the wheel;
- water-based pastes and emultions (CBN, diamond) - water hardens the leather, not good.

Quality wax-based polishing compounds are fine, but have no advantage over Tormek's, as they feature all you complain of.

Alcohol-based diamond suspension is fine, as the alcohol evaporates quickly; after it dries off you will need to rub crystals into the leather with little oil.

wootz.

Thank you for sharing your experience.

By the way, I saw your leather wheel with green compound on your website. Is there another reason to use Green Compound instead of PA-70, besides grit?

And where is this compound sold? And I would be very grateful if you let me know how to apply it to the wheel.

Based on your first post... if you don't like the "mess" of the PA-70... you're probably not going to like dealing with the green stuff.  It can make a real mess.  :o

Personally, I think there's better options available.  I've become a fan of "Flexcut Gold"... especially for knives.  Diamond compounds are also a good choice.  I don't find there's enough water in the water based ones to adversely affect the leather, unless you overdue it.  Most of the pastes I've tried have very little oil in them (in fact you usually have to add something to them to get them to spread evenly)... They won't "over-oil" the wheel any more than the Tormek compound will.
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Offline Ken S

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Re: Another way to honing with Tormek
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2017, 08:27:38 pm »
Here is a no fuss, no muss solution recommended by our own Grepper:

 http://bessex.com/forum/archive/index.php?thread-40.html

Ken

Offline wootz

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Re: Another way to honing with Tormek
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2017, 11:06:19 pm »
wootz.

Thank you for sharing your experience.By the way, I saw your leather wheel with green compound on your website. Is there another reason to use Green Compound instead of PA-70, besides grit?



And where is this compound sold? And I would be very grateful if you let me know how to apply it to the wheel.

What you see there is pure Chromium Oxide 0.5 micron, the same that Professor Verhoeven used - available as CHROMOX, and other branded names in straight razor shops. Note that Green Rouge and other green buffing compounds is not the same as Chromium Oxide, they have varying abrasive particles 0.5 to 3 micron in size, largely Alumina.

First spray the leather wheel with a diamond spray, and switch your Tormek on to let it dry off; then rub diamonds into the leather with a gloved finger and little light oil. Then run a blank or junk blade to sweep away loose crystals - if you don't they may get dragged out and scratch your precious knives.

@CBWX34 - I started with diamond oil-based pastes, but quickly over-oiled the leather wheel, it became slick and stopped doing its job; therefore I had to switch to alcohol-based sprays.
I don't doubt what you say, it depends on frequency of application.

You pick the honing compound depending on the grit you've set the edge - I name a few I use myself:
After #220-400 (coarse SG wheel) it is Autosol, from 10 to 6 micron diamonds;
After #800-1000 (fine SG wheel) it is Tormek compound, from 5 to 2.5 micron diamonds;
After #4000-5000 (SJ wheel) it is Chromium Oxide, 0.25-0.5 micron diamonds.

Some forumers here have several leather wheels with different compounds on them.

« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 12:15:26 am by wootz »

Offline Sharpco

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Re: Another way to honing with Tormek
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2017, 02:06:49 pm »
What you see there is pure Chromium Oxide 0.5 micron, the same that Professor Verhoeven used - available as CHROMOX, and other branded names in straight razor shops. Note that Green Rouge and other green buffing compounds is not the same as Chromium Oxide, they have varying abrasive particles 0.5 to 3 micron in size, largely Alumina.

First spray the leather wheel with a diamond spray, and switch your Tormek on to let it dry off; then rub diamonds into the leather with a gloved finger and little light oil. Then run a blank or junk blade to sweep away loose crystals - if you don't they may get dragged out and scratch your precious knives.

@CBWX34 - I started with diamond oil-based pastes, but quickly over-oiled the leather wheel, it became slick and stopped doing its job; therefore I had to switch to alcohol-based sprays.
I don't doubt what you say, it depends on frequency of application.

You pick the honing compound depending on the grit you've set the edge - I name a few I use myself:
After #220-400 (coarse SG wheel) it is Autosol, from 10 to 6 micron diamonds;
After #800-1000 (fine SG wheel) it is Tormek compound, from 5 to 2.5 micron diamonds;
After #4000-5000 (SJ wheel) it is Chromium Oxide, 0.25-0.5 micron diamonds.

Some forumers here have several leather wheels with different compounds on them.

Thank you very much.

I think Chromox is much more expensive than the PA-70. Is Chromox use less than PA-70?

And how to apply the Chromox to the Leather wheel?

Offline Ken S

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Re: Another way to honing with Tormek
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2017, 04:01:52 pm »
Am I missing something? When many of us either have or are lusting after an SJ-250 Japanese grinding wheel costing several hundred dollars, why is the cost of honing compound such an issue?

I am one of the forum with multiple leather honing wheels. I have used one with valve grinding compound. It's like using PA-70 on steroids. It cuts aggressively, however, it does not leave as smooth a polish as PA-70. I like having choices, although PA-70 remains my go to compound.

For the record, I also purchased a spare leather honing wheel for my T4. At this point it is unused and undedicated. Although I generally like to stay with what has worked well for, I also want to remain open minded to new opportunities.

Ken

ps The best way to purchase PA-70 Tormek honing compound is at a woodworking show. Although not advertised, Tormek accessories are generally twenty percent off. Buy several tubes.

Offline cbwx34

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Re: Another way to honing with Tormek
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2017, 07:40:18 pm »
There are a couple of methods for using honing compounds.  One, as wootz has shown, is to match the honing compound based on the previous grit.  This will clean up and refine the edge to a higher polish... finer finish.  The other is to just use honing to mainly clean up the edge.  So, for example, you could go from 220g to a .5m compound... this won't refine as much as clean up and deburr the edge.  One advantage to this is retaining a more "toothy" edge, if that is your preference.

Also keep in mind that how it's used affects the outcome... for example, many have wondered why the compound for the paper wheels doesn't work as well on the Tormek... not realizing the difference in speed.  (Seems obvious, but you'd be surprised how often this comes up).

sharpco... a little "green powder" will go a looooong way. :)

Edit to add:   I wouldn't discount using the Tormek compound... if you pay attention to other sharpeners (YouTube videos, etc.), a lot of sharpeners that don't even use the Tormek, will use the Tormek compound to finish an edge.  I don't think switching to something else, for the reasons given in the 1st post, is going to make much difference.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 07:55:13 pm by cbwx34 »
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Offline Ken S

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Re: Another way to honing with Tormek
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2017, 08:42:19 pm »
I think it is important to remember that grit size with some honing compounds, including Tormek, breaks down with use. This is like garnet sandpaper. It starts out more coarse for initial sanding or polishing and becomes finer with use. Tormek's honing compound breaks down with use to around 6000 grit. That is certainly in the range of an 8000 grit waterstone, and finer than the best oil stones.

Ken

Offline SharpenADullWitt

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Re: Another way to honing with Tormek
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2017, 07:26:56 am »
Am I missing something? When many of us either have or are lusting after an SJ-250 Japanese grinding wheel costing several hundred dollars, why is the cost of honing compound such an issue?


I thought with the SJ stone, you didn't need to use the leather wheel?  (thought the point of it was honing/polishing)
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Offline Ken S

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Re: Another way to honing with Tormek
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2017, 03:28:00 pm »
I think, in fairness to Tormek and PA-70, it is important to remember that PA-70 is an all around general purpose honing compound. It is used with sharpening all tools, from planer blades to turning gouges to chisels to carving tools to knives. It has given trooper service for many years. It is used by both Tormek experts and those whose expertise has not yet been realized. It is also used with other sharpening systems.

In recent years other, more specialized honing compounds have been developed. I would not expect PA-70 or any general purpose product to perform as well as a product specifically formulated for a specific function. I can certainly see where someone like Wootz who has developed a specialized high end sharpening service where more specialized (and often more expensive) product. That said, I don't think it is fair to dismiss a trooper product like PA-70.

Ken

Offline RichColvin

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Re: Another way to honing with Tormek
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2017, 08:31:22 pm »
I thought with the SJ stone, you didn't need to use the leather wheel?  (thought the point of it was honing/polishing)

SADW,

When I use the SJ wheel, I don't hone on the leather wheel.  I haven't found it necessary.

Kind regards,
Rich
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