Author Topic: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder  (Read 5544 times)

Offline OneRogueWave

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BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
« on: February 02, 2018, 06:25:57 am »
  Hey there all, I shaped and sharpened some gouges on my T8. The rouging in was done on a borrowed belt sander attachment on a bench grinder, it used a odd set-up but had the SVD-180 clamp. That really helped out on set-up, grind on belt sander, go to stone and with multiple tools and with my SVD-185 in rotation, sped up the process. Has anyone successfully set up a BGM-100 on a belt sander? I run a Veil S-5, 1x42 and I just don't have the room for yet another machine, I'd rather make this work. I've already looked at the .pdf on the BGM, all the info is based on wheels, maybe use the TTS-100 and reverse engineer the geometry?

best regards, Kevin

Offline Ken S

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Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2018, 12:35:34 pm »
Welcome to the forum, Kevin.

Your idea should certainly work. I have a Viel S5. It's a nice, versatile machine. I have not used mine with the BGM-100, however, it seems just a matter of placing the BGM-100 so that the gouge edge aligns with the platen.

This must be a two part reply. I will go to my shop (just downstairs in the basement) after I return from driving my grandchildren to school. I will take a good look at my Viel and my (bought for future experimenting) BGM-100.

Incidentally, the two holes in the TTS-100 setting tool are just for setting the two Distances (between the universal support bar and the grinding wheel) on which Tormek bases its gouge settings. I will measure those two distances. You can make very simple one piece wooden gage blocks to set the Distance to your 1x42 belt. This will allow you to use the full program of of your SVD-185.

Of the top of my head (caveat: not tested) I think all the Tormek jigs should work with this setup.

I will get back to you later this morning.

Ken

Offline RichColvin

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Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2018, 01:39:01 pm »
Kevin,

I use the BGM-100 on my bench grinder, primarily for two purposes:
  • to do the initial shaping on tools (HSS & Carbide), and
  • to provide an improved platform for general grinding (i.e., using the SVD-110 Tool Rest)

This works finely, but I use my Tormek grinder for sharpening as I have much greater control on steel removal, & I don’t like heating up the tool. 
  • For high speed steel, heat isn’t a huge issue, but I find that woodturning makes the tool hot anyway (especially hard, dry woods), & it's nice to cool the tool down !
  • For high carbon steels (some old spindle gouges my grandfather gave me), heat can be a real issue for metal tempering, so I avoid it.
  • For carbide tools (e.g., cemented carbide inserts), heat isn’t a real issue, but quenching the tool very much is.  It can lead to cracks and make the edge significantly more prone to deformation.  (I also had one instance where the heat caused the cement to fail, forcing me to re-attach the carbide to the tool.  That tool was out of commission for a few days for repair.)


For me, sharpening is something I want to be fast & effective.  I like to attach the jig, quickly sharpen, then get back to what I’m trying to do.  The Tormek grinder makes that happen, & I’ll bet you soon end up finding space for one.

Good luck with the BGM.  It is a great addition.

Rich
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 04:21:50 pm by RichColvin »
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Rich Colvin
www.SharpeningHandbook.info - a reference guide for sharpening
www.OTBoK.info - help those getting started in ornamental turning -- to make that journey easier.

You are born weak & frail, and you die weak & frail.  What you do between those is up to you.

Offline Ken S

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Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2018, 07:24:26 pm »
Kevin,

This is looking promising. I looked at my Viel. I think the BGM-100 can be mounted on the Viel's grinding table. It will need to be mounted somewhat off center. Some clearance with the table would be good. It needs a flat piece between the table and the BGM-100. I happen to have baltic birch plywood in stock. That is where I would start, however, use what you have-wood or metal. Using the grinding table means that the BGM-100 is easily removable. a spare table is readily available from Viel or sparpeningmadeeasy.com.

Be sure to check your pm (private messages) tab later today.

Ken

Ken

Offline OneRogueWave

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Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2018, 07:53:20 pm »
  Thanks for the reply, I'll be looking at my inbox. I have a motor with a bad start capacitor so it's a manual start BUT I choose the direction it goes!

Offline Ken S

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Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2018, 10:51:16 pm »
I worked at the Hurricane Island Outward Bound School some forty years ago. We had a small work boat with a single cylinder engine. We called it a "one lunger". Reverse "gear" consisted in stopping the engine and giving the flywheel a spin in the opposite direction. While the bad starting capacitor is a nuisance, I would not give it much priority on the to do list.

If you ever decide to replace the motor, unless you have access to a free or nearly free used motor, I would switch to a variable speed motor. They cost around $130 new.

Ken


Offline cbwx34

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Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2018, 12:10:29 am »
Type "Using Tormek jigs on a belt sander", and scroll thru the images... you might get some ideas. ;)

Offline Ken S

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Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2018, 02:46:23 am »
I had a chance to do some mock up up work. I am convinced it can be done, however, making the set up will require some thought and either wood or metal work. The Viel table must either be lowered and modified or the platen replaced with a taller one. A machine shop could do either of these.

A tall wooden under the BGM-100, placed in front of and to the right of the Viel should work. Changing belts can be clumsy with this arrangement.

Given your space constraint, would it be possible to fit a T4 in your shop space? It can be made to function as a dry grinder with the right wheel.

Ken

Offline AKMike

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Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2018, 07:19:44 am »
Here is one example of using the BGM-100 on a belt sander -

http://www.shopsmith.com/ss_forum/general-woodworking-f5/new-project-t20894.html

Mike

Offline Ken S

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Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2018, 11:53:11 am »
I think you will find the Viel more "user friendly" if you use it in the horizontal position. The standard vertical position places the tool being ground at a clumsy position. Just tip the Viel over. Steve Bottorff has done an excellent video demonstrating this. Do a search for Steve Bottorff you tube channel.

You will need to make a column to hold the BGM-100. I suggest just using the flat platform with the two sleeves and screwing it directly to a wooden column.

I suggest making a plywood base to keep the Viel and column aligned. Right angle brackets will keep the column supported and aligned. Wootz makes some very nice columns designed for using the BGM with paper wheels. He has photos showing them on his website (knifegrinders.com.au). One of these would work very nicely, but is probably overkill for your needs.

If you can make the whole thing yourself out of wood or metal, the project should be cost effective. Do not forget to factor in belt changing (actually do it during mock up). Your one lunger bidirectional motor is an advantage here. For those with motors with working starter mechanisms, I recommend installing a reversing switch.

If you think you might be interested in pursuing this path, I can post a photo.

Ken

Offline GKC

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Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2018, 03:21:27 am »
This thread began some time ago, so Kevin has probably moved on, but in case anyone else is curious about the Tormek jigs on a belt grinder, especially the Viel S5 (1x42") model, here is my experience. 

My entry to Tormek was with the BGM-100 and several Tormek jigs, all mounted in front of a Viel.  (I have three Viels, one I have equipped with a variable speed reversing motor, and that is the one I used for the Tormek application).   I did it just as Ken envisioned, with the BGM-100 mounted on a stout wooden block just in front of and to the right of the belt.  I was chasing a dream: the Tormek jigs with my existing flat bevel grinding and sharpening equipment.

It is because I never found a way to make this satisfactory that I recently went whole-hog and got the T-8.  I still have the Viel / BGM-100 set up in place, but the T-8 is so much better in every respect (except for speed in some applications) that I am not using the Viel / BGM-100 setup much anymore. 

One important limitation I found with the Tormek jigs on the Viel is that the Tormek jigs are designed to take advantage of the clearance that is created by the curvature of the wheel.  With the knife jigs, for example, I found it very difficult to get anything better than a 20 degree bevel (for a 40 degree edge) on the flat surface.  Anything more acute and the jig hit the belt, whereas it clears the wheel on the Tormek because the wheel falls away underneath the contact point.  The scissors jig is better but you find yourself bumping into things on the Viel/BGM setup that just aren't there to be in the way on the Tormek machine.  An exception is turning tools in e.g. the SVD-186, where there is a lot of projection out of the jig so that the jig can be far back from the belt  (but a 1" belt is narrow for that task).

I have had my Viels for over 20 years and love their simplicity and versatility--I hope to use them for 20 more.  But I couldn't find a good fit with the Tormek jigs, and think that it is worth saving to get one of the Tormek machines rather than wrestling as I did with something like a Viel / Tormek combination.

Gord


Offline Ken S

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Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2018, 01:20:00 pm »
Very informative post, Gord.

I probably use my Viel as much as a Tormek, but for different things.

Ken

Offline OneRogueWave

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Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2019, 03:43:13 am »
au contraire Gord, I've not given up yet on trying to use the Viel S-5 IF it's practical but asking the group did solicit great responses as yours was very enlightening. I do find some grinding operations on the Tormek tedious and inefficient but like a swiss army knife the tormek does alot, just not all great. I did burn my BGM-100 idea on a felt/paper wheel machine ala Wootz and his great research. Sorry all for the late reply but as with life, I've been buried and some things fall to the back....way back burner.

Offline RickKrung

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Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2019, 07:11:21 am »
This thread began some time ago, so Kevin has probably moved on, but in case anyone else is curious about the Tormek jigs on a belt grinder, especially the Viel S5 (1x42") model, here is my experience. 

My entry to Tormek was with the BGM-100 and several Tormek jigs, all mounted in front of a Viel.  (I have three Viels, one I have equipped with a variable speed reversing motor, and that is the one I used for the Tormek application).   I did it just as Ken envisioned, with the BGM-100 mounted on a stout wooden block just in front of and to the right of the belt.  I was chasing a dream: the Tormek jigs with my existing flat bevel grinding and sharpening equipment.

It is because I never found a way to make this satisfactory that I recently went whole-hog and got the T-8.  I still have the Viel / BGM-100 set up in place, but the T-8 is so much better in every respect (except for speed in some applications) that I am not using the Viel / BGM-100 setup much anymore. 

One important limitation I found with the Tormek jigs on the Viel is that the Tormek jigs are designed to take advantage of the clearance that is created by the curvature of the wheel.  With the knife jigs, for example, I found it very difficult to get anything better than a 20 degree bevel (for a 40 degree edge) on the flat surface.  Anything more acute and the jig hit the belt, whereas it clears the wheel on the Tormek because the wheel falls away underneath the contact point.  The scissors jig is better but you find yourself bumping into things on the Viel/BGM setup that just aren't there to be in the way on the Tormek machine.  An exception is turning tools in e.g. the SVD-186, where there is a lot of projection out of the jig so that the jig can be far back from the belt  (but a 1" belt is narrow for that task).

I have had my Viels for over 20 years and love their simplicity and versatility--I hope to use them for 20 more.  But I couldn't find a good fit with the Tormek jigs, and think that it is worth saving to get one of the Tormek machines rather than wrestling as I did with something like a Viel / Tormek combination.

Gord

I am working on trying to resolve the conflicts/interference of the Viel frame with getting the Tormek knife jigs in closer for the more acute angles, as Gord points out is difficult (read as "not possible").  I started out trying it with the Viel upright in the normal position, which is where I discovered the problem.
https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=3705.msg27703#msg27703

I then went to trying it with the Viel on its back or front, to try to get the jigs out in front of the top (passive) pulley and using the BGM (and FVB).  I'm still working on that, but have found that the USB is also part of the problem.  With the USB in a vertical position, the vertical uprights interfere with the collar.  With the USB uprights in a horizontal position, the uprights interfere with the jig body.  This occurs whether the Viel is in its normal/nominal upright position or on its back or face with the passive pulley out front and whether the Viel frame is flat or tilted. 

I think the solution is to have the USB/uprights at an angle, but I'm not sure yet what angles might work, given the length of the USB uprights.  It may be necessary to cut off some of the uprights to provide the clearance from the table.  I am wondering if it might be necessary to bend the uprights, so the BGM/FVB can be either/both vertical and/or horizontal.  I have just this evening returned from a week road trip to a bamboo fly rod makers gathering and all my stuff is still loaded in my car, so I am unable tonight to offer any images. 

I would prefer to have the Viel in its nominal upright position, so am considering cutting away at the top front corner of the Viel frame (in the area where the stock platform/jigs mount).  I do not anticipate using any of the Viel jigs but also, cutting away enough so the Tormek jigs clear will not preclude use of that slot for mounting Viel jigs/platform. 

Now that I am home again, I hope to work on this some this week.  But, my daughter and granddaughter are moving to their own place in a couple weeks and I do not know yet how much of my time may be consumed with preparations. 

Rick
Quality is like buying oats.  If you want nice clean, fresh oats, you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse, that comes at a lower price.

Offline RickKrung

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Viel Tilted with BGM/FVB/USB
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2019, 06:32:52 am »
I think I've figure it out...  for now...  ;)  This is going with the Viel tilted on its back and with the motor reversed.

All of this is still just in the design stage, all still just CAD drawings.  But that is how I start most projects and it really helps work out a lot of issues before trying to build anything.  My buddy scoffs at this approach and he just goes into his shop and starts making stuff.  He re-makes a lot along the way. 

So, started with a base, with some blocks for tilting the Viel frame and this image shows the block on which the BGM will be mounted.


Next shows the frame positioned on the tilting blocks.  Frame is tilted at 12º, which is the most acute angle I can get due to the Tormek jig contacting the belt at anything more acute. 


Here we have the entire Viel sander assembly, in the tilted position. 


Base board with the BGM/FVB/USB.  The sander is omitted for clarity. 


The entire assembly, sans knife jigs.


Due to the limit on number of attachments, this will be continued in another post, showing the knife jigs on the USB/sander. 

Rick
« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 08:20:26 am by RickKrung »
Quality is like buying oats.  If you want nice clean, fresh oats, you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse, that comes at a lower price.