Author Topic: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder  (Read 3836 times)

Offline RickKrung

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Tormek Knife Jigs on Tilted Viel Sander
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2019, 06:46:53 am »
This series shows the Tormek SVM-45 knife jig in four angle positions on the tilted Viel with the BGM/FVB/USB used for support. 

12º


14º


16º


18º


This method can be used for angles as acute as 12º.  I had thought that the vertical uprights would interfere with the jig collar, but with trial and error I figured out how to avoid that.  The uprights would interfere with the collar at any angle more acute, but as stated above, so would the lower jaw of the jig.  The width adjustment screw also contacted the belt at the 12º setting but I figure I'll have to shorten those screws, maybe by no other means than just using it and letting the belt as much stock removal as is necessary. 

The final image shows the distances from the top of an XB-100 Horizontal Base to the top of the USB for each angle setting.


This approach simplifies the setting of the USB height to just a measurement of the distance between the XB-100 and the top of the USB, similar to how one does it on the vertical USB on the Tormek machines, presumably if using an applet for calculating the distances.  I don't think an applet is necessary.  If nothing else, using one of those electronic angle gauges (angle cubes) to measure the angle directly off of the jig/blade could be done.  The best way would be to use a surrogate blade that has no other bevel other than at the apex would give the best/right angle. 

Anyone attempting this build will likely have to figure out what those USB height distances are, given their particular build.  I'll report back on how actually building and using this design works.  I plan on using this from a sitting position.  My objective was to put the Viel at an angle that allows the operator to easily see the blade contacting the belt while in that sitting position.

If the uprights interfere with jig collar, I think lowering the angle of the Viel frame may alleviate the conflict.  That would, of course, change the USB heights. 

Rick
« Last Edit: July 25, 2019, 02:14:44 am by RickKrung »
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Offline Ken S

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Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2019, 09:32:33 am »
Very clever, Rick.

Your set up reminds me of "the ancestor kenjig", originally used to set chisels and plane irons using the TTS-100. (This was long before I started sharpening knives.) I set the Distance between the grinding wheel and support bar using the holes in the TTS-100 first. Using the Anglemaster, I then set the Projection. When I had the bevel angle right, I made a Sharpie mark on a label tape on the TTS-100 slot. This was somewhat clumsy, however, I only had to do it one time. By the time I started sharpening knives, Dutchman had posted his grinding tables.

I think the kenjig could be easily modified to work with your Viel set up.

Ken

Offline RickKrung

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Alternative BGM Setups
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2019, 04:28:44 pm »
Here are some alternative designs for mounting the USB/BGM without the use of an FVB. These may be of interest to those who do not have an FVB to include. 

The first uses a wooden block to mount a single XB-100 Horizontal Base on a taller wooden block.  This keeps the USB in the same place as the one I posted above, and the USB Height Distances are the same.  The advantage, of course is not needed another device.  The disadvantage is that there is less flexibility in positioning the USB for other jigs and operations.  I have no idea at this time whether that matters. 

The wooden block:


XB-100 and USB at 12º:


This one also uses a taller wooden block that eliminates the FVB, but at an angle.  It provides the best clearance for the jigs from the USB uprights.  It does NOT preserve the USB heights from above and in fact, changes things quite a bit because it causes the contact location of the blade apex along the belt/platen to change.  As the USB is extended for higher angles, that contact point is lower on the platen.  I have not worked the USB positions for the other angles.  This approach may also allow for shallower angles than 12º but would mean material would have to come off of the bottom jig jaw and the adjusting screw.  It may be useful for free-handing and/or with a platform like Herman's I posted previously a platform made for the Viel


Rick
« Last Edit: July 24, 2019, 04:50:28 pm by RickKrung »
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Offline RickKrung

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Vertical/Upright Viel USB Setup
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2019, 05:53:08 am »
I've really been thrashing about over the past couple of weeks, trying to get this Viel belt sander outfitted with a Tormek USB so I can use the Tormek knife jigs for sharpening.  I made a platform for more general uses, but I want to be able to use the sander to rough things in and then move to the Tormek for the actual sharpening. 

I posted above about turning the sander around and tipping it over so the passive pulley is nearest and mount the sander and USB support on a plywood base board.  Several reasons why I didn't really care for that set up, one being it takes up too much space and I am not convinced the sander will be useful for other, non-sharpening tasks where I want the sander in the nominal upright position. 

So, I set out again and changed things completely.  I also wanted the USB support to be on the left side of the sander frame, leaving the right side completely clear for belt changes. Here is a CAD drawing looking at what I came up with from the right side. The jig shown is set at 12º.  Note the space between the USB and the belt.  More room to move it closer if needed.  Part of my objective was to keep the XB-100 and its wooden support completely behind the belt/platen so there would be no chance of those items interfering with access to the belt. 


I've mounted a wooden block to the frame on the left side and mounted an XB-100 Horizontal Base.  I had to drill and tap one hole in the Viel frame to mount this wooden block and I put a bevel on the front side for clearance. 




I aligned the USB with the front of the platen by clamping the USB in the XB-100 and forcing the USB against the front of the platen.  Then transfer punched the hole locations, followed by clearance drilling for the mounting screws.


I didn't get one hole deep enough and it split out.  I've glued it but I am going to wait until tomorrow to remount the XB-100 and continue with testing how it works. 




This setup changes the relationship between the USB and the belt/platen from the previous configuration, so here is a USB setting template with dimensions.  The template is for angles of 12, 14, 16 and 18º only.  I'll use the digital angle cube for other angles. 


This setup can be moved in closer for almost 10º, but the collar, either the stock collar or the Pin Pivot Collar interferes with the frame when in close to 10º.  I have never sharpened anything at less than 12º, so I am not very concerned about it. 

Tomorrow I'll finish the setup and try out grinding some junker knives on the Viel and then take them to the Tormek to see how it performs.  I am feeling pretty good about his one.  The sander is easily moved and does not take up much room, both good things. 

One of the things I really like about this one is that it uses only a single horizontal base and one USB, freeing my FVB for use on the Tormek where it serves a much better use.  I did not want to be switching the FVB between machines, as that would kill most of the time advantage of having the sander for roughing.  With this configuration, I do not have to mess with reversing the motor and/or installing the reversing switch.  That is a trivial matter, I just don't want to have to dig for the switch right now (box it is in, is in storage). 

Rick
« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 06:15:42 am by RickKrung »
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Offline Jan

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Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2019, 09:57:56 am »
Rick, thank you for your progress report, appreciated!
IMHO the 12⁰ bevel angle will be possible only for wider blades where the protruding part of the blade is at least 20-21 mm. For narrower blades the lower clamp of the jig will probably touch the belt. Please let me know.

Jan
« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 10:09:25 am by Jan »

Offline RickKrung

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Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2019, 06:13:26 pm »
Rick, thank you for your progress report, appreciated!
IMHO the 12⁰ bevel angle will be possible only for wider blades where the protruding part of the blade is at least 20-21 mm. For narrower blades the lower clamp of the jig will probably touch the belt. Please let me know.

Jan

I think you are correct.  That will be a limitation.  Good catch.  There is always something. 

The setup where the sander is turned around and tilted with the jig fixturing is out in front of (clear of) the passive pulley would solve that.  It will be interesting to see if the wider angles will do much better on those narrow blades.  May be a reason to use the small knife jig, although, the problem will likely exist for long skinny blades, such as filet knives. 

Another option would be to use the sander to remove some of the thickness of the jig bottom jaw until it clears for those narrow blades.  There isn't a lot of pressure involved. If it doesn't take that much off, I think there would still be enough meat there.

Another option that I have considered is to rough such a blade in at a higher/wider angle, to do the heavy material removal and then clean it up on the Tormek.  It would mean using the Tormek for taking material off of the blade at the wide part of the bevel until the apex is reached and a bevel at the desired more acute angle is established.  That would not be as fast as doing all the roughing at the target angle on the sander, but I think it would work. 

Rick

Rick
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Offline Jan

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Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2019, 09:17:00 pm »
Yes Rick, I know the limitation from my past experiments when I was positioning the USB versus my hand bet sander. Nevertheless the conclusion was/is encouraging. When the diameter of the passive pulley is smaller than the diameter of the Tormek wheel than it is possible to position the USB so, that the knife jig clearance is slightly better for the belt sander than for Tormek. 

Jan

Offline RickKrung

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Thrashing About Continues
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2019, 07:04:44 pm »
The thrashing about continues, although the oscillations are getting smaller, maybe. 

I was satisfied with the USB configuration with the sander in the vertical position (and in the tilted, but I prefer the former), as above.  But..., then I tired including the adjusting screw and locking knob.  Both contact the belt in both orientations. 

Vertical mount, adjusting screw contact:


Vertical mount, locking screw contact:


Tilted mount, adjusting screw contact:'


Tilted mount, locking screw contact:


There is no solution for the locking knob contact with the vertical position of the sander.  I could solve the interference problems for both by using a 6mm set screw in place of the locking knob.  Contact with the adjusting screw will happen only with the more acute angle, 12º at least, but can be dealt with by grinding a bit off the to of the screw head.  Or the adjusting screw could be replaced by a wide headed socket screw, such as a pan head with the underside contoured to match the curvature of the upper jaw pocket. 

The solution for the tilted mount is to move the entire assembly further down the belt toward the passive pulley.  This would avoid having to use set screws in place of the locking knob, but it puts the sander in the tilted position, which is what takes up so much bench space.  Decisions....


There is a very high likelihood I will try the set screws first with the vertical position, since that is the orientation I prefer and it is set up now.  Using set screws means having to handle a tool as part of the jig set up process, which could be a pain, at least until I become accustomed to it.  We'll see.  I have already been questioning the wisdom of trying to adapt the Viel for use with the Tormek knife jigs.  I am sure it will be a useful addition to my shop, but how many are going to bother the the amount of hassle it is to set up as I have been trying. 

Rick
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 06:51:59 pm by RickKrung »
Quality is like buying oats.  If you want nice clean, fresh oats, you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse, that comes at a lower price.

Offline RickKrung

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Viel Tilted and Rotated Complete (for now)
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2019, 07:07:56 pm »
The build is complete, at least for now.  We'll see what, if any adjustments are necessary or desired. 

Viel turned around and tilted on its back, set up so the USB/knife jigs are out in front of the top/passive pulley, with the point of contact along the platen close to the pulley.  I have not installed the reversing switch yet, but I have reversed the leads inside the control box so the belt travels away from the knife (edge-trailing) in this position. 




I built it so the whole assembly could be tilted up so the sander rests on its factory feet and can be used in the upright/frontal orientation.  In this position, the belt is traveling downward, so is not usable for sharpening so much, but more like the traditional 1x30" benchtop belt sander.  I have one and am considering retrofitting it with the same variable speed motor. 


As could be expected, there is always something.  The MicroAdjust (MA) nut, if screwed all the way up on the USB upright interferes with the stock adjustable collar.  I have two MAs on each USB, on at the top and one down on the Horizontal Base (HB) (or T8 case) as an aid to keeping the calipers parallel with the upright when setting heights using one of the angle calculating apps. 


With the USB so close to the HB, it may be more difficult to keep parallel, if using calipers.  I am thinking it would be faster and more definitive to make some spacers to use between the bottom of the USB bar and the top of the HB, eliminating the use of calipers for standard angles, such as 12, 14, 16 and 18º and permitting not having the MA not right up there at the top. 

Rick
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 07:13:48 pm by RickKrung »
Quality is like buying oats.  If you want nice clean, fresh oats, you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse, that comes at a lower price.

Offline RickKrung

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Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2019, 11:16:33 pm »
I've been working on the electronics/control box to add a motor direction reversing switch.  It has been a pain finding the right switch.  I'd really prefer a rocker switch, but the best I've been able to find in any store locally is a toggle switch.  I'm going with that until I find the right rocker switch. 

Image of the insides of the control box.  Reversing switch is going to go into the lower left corner.  The speed pot has a locating tab.  I wanted to rotate it 180º to get the leads on the bottom, so I had to drill a new locating tab hole into the case.  That speed pot is just loose in there in this photo.


Reversing switch installed. 


External view of the installed reversing switch.  Ken took his to a motor shop to have the switch put in.  They located it on the bottom of the case where the power cords come and go and where the reset button is.  I wanted my reversing switch to be distinguishable from the On/Off switch but to be near it and the speed pot on the top of the case.  The only place for it was on the side, but that is near enough. 


The reversing switch isn't wired yet, as I have not located my box of electronics parts since my move and the local hardware stores do not have what I need. 

Rick
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 06:08:06 pm by RickKrung »
Quality is like buying oats.  If you want nice clean, fresh oats, you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse, that comes at a lower price.

Offline RickKrung

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Reversing Switch Installed
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2019, 06:50:12 am »
I didn't like the toggle switch that I had installed, so changed it out for a "mini" rocker switch.  I also repositioned it next to the main power switch.  The rocker switch is low profile enough, I believe I will not have any trouble flipping it rather than the power switch, but that remains to be seen. 

Cutting the hole.  I kind of butchered one sides, but it is mostly hidden once the switch is in.


Wiring is kind of tight.  I added shrink wrap insulation over the exposed metal quick disconnect fittings. 


Buttoned up and ready to run. 


Rick
Quality is like buying oats.  If you want nice clean, fresh oats, you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse, that comes at a lower price.

Offline Ken S

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Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2019, 05:49:09 pm »
Rick,

I like your switch set up. I designed my Viel set up to mount the control box on the wooden box I built to help carry the unit.The switches are all fairly well protected.

Your design definitely makes the reversing switch more convenient.

Ken

PS I like your longer platen. It seems "just the ticket" for correcting the curve of chef's knives!
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 05:52:18 pm by Ken S »

Offline RickKrung

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Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2019, 05:59:07 pm »
Rick,

I like your switch set up. I designed my Viel set up to mount the control box on the wooden box I built to help carry the unit.The switches are all fairly well protected.

Your design definitely makes the reversing switch more convenient.

Ken

And I believe it is also well protected, whether the control box is mounted or not.  I am not sure yet what I will do with the control box.  I do not like it loose.  It is vulnerable, but more important, awkward to turn on and off. 

I want to mount it.  The obvious place is on the plywood base board.  But that leaves it vulnerable to the grinding grit/dust which cannot be good.  If I deal with collecting that grit/dust using a vacuum setup, I may feel comfortable mounting it on the base board.

But, therein lies a design consideration that "Grepper" pointed out (on the Bessex forum), which is to not use the same dust collection system for the sander, which can generate sparks, that is used for wood dust collection. ... Exactly what I was planning on doing.  He uses a counter-current 5 gal. bucket to collect the grinder dust.  I think he even uses a separate vacuum for it, rather than the one he uses for wood dust. 

Still pondering what to do on that.

Rick
Quality is like buying oats.  If you want nice clean, fresh oats, you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse, that comes at a lower price.

Offline Ken S

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Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2019, 06:58:51 pm »
Rick,

This is how I have my controller mounted. I have a plywood lid. The lid could be lengthened to coner the controller. Maxtheknife uses the magnetic copy paper (to make refrigerator magnets) to catch most of the steel particles.

A Swedish company makes the best dustless product.It uses a water bath.



Ken

Offline RickKrung

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Re: BGM-100 not on a wheel grinder
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2019, 07:05:03 pm »
Thanks.  I am still pondering how and whether I should try to enclose the motor/controller, as well as dust collection.  I wonder how well the magnets really work, given that some of the "dust" is abrasive grit as well as the metal particles.  Also, since many of the knives we sharpen are stainless, which in its various forms, many are not or very weakly magnetic.  I think a vacuum system with a hood or shroud is where I will go with it.  I hope that will reduce motivation to enclose things, my only real concern being dirt getting into the controller through the ventilation slots. 

Rick
« Last Edit: August 18, 2019, 08:58:22 am by RickKrung »
Quality is like buying oats.  If you want nice clean, fresh oats, you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse, that comes at a lower price.