Poll

What Option Do You Use The Most in a "Knife Sharpening as a Business" Setup?

Tormek Only - Freehand
1 (6.3%)
Tormek Only - with Jig or Guide
5 (31.3%)
Tormek + Another Device/Method - Freehand
3 (18.8%)
Tormek + Another Device/Method - with Jig or Guide
4 (25%)
Other (please describe in the comments)
3 (18.8%)

Total Members Voted: 16

Voting closed: April 01, 2018, 03:50:50 pm

Author Topic: "Knife Sharpening as a Business" Setup Options (Poll)  (Read 2511 times)

Offline cbwx34

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"Knife Sharpening as a Business" Setup Options (Poll)
« on: February 13, 2018, 02:50:50 pm »
I'm curious to see what option is most often used in a knife sharpening business operation in two main areas:
  • Whether you use the Tormek only, or in combination with another device or method
  • Whether you sharpen freehand or with a jig or guide on the Tormek
This would be what method you use the most.  Feel free to add comments.

If you vote "Other"... please describe! 
(Poll runs until the end of March)

Thanks!
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 01:36:45 am by cbwx34 »

Offline kwakster

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Re: Commercial Sharpening Setup Options (Poll)
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2018, 04:06:56 pm »
A Tormek T7 wet sharpening machine fitted with an SB 250 Blackstone (black silicon carbide) for major edge repair & reprofiling.
Rubber Wheels with diamond grit for intermediate work, and Paper Wheels with various diamond compounds for fine polishing & deburring.
Most knives on the Tormek i do freehand, some in a jig (and lately experimenting with my version of Herman's knife rest)
On both the Rubber Wheels and Paper Wheels everything gets freehanded.

I'm not into large scale volume sharpening, i cater mostly to a discriminating category of collectors, hunters, and Chefs, both in and outside my area.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 05:55:57 pm by kwakster »

Offline wootz

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Re: Commercial Sharpening Setup Options (Poll)
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2018, 04:18:05 pm »
I tried to define Commercial vs Professional sharpening in a recent thread.
https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=3518.msg22445#msg22445

An abattoir or a meet plant are examples of commercial volume sharpening.
Tormek stock stone lasts for about 1000 knives - it would last for 2 weeks at an abattoir or 3 days at a meat plant, making the cost of sharpening per knife unfeasible to use in those commercial sharpening.
Commercial sharpening only allows under half a dollar per knife in consumables including power bills, and about one dollar total including the sharpener's salary. They also cannot afford more than one head of a dedicated sharpener - and one man can do how many knives on Tormek per shift? Their job description usually includes other than sharpening tasks as well.
Tormek is not suitable for commercial sharpening where they sharpen over a hundred of knives a day.

What you try to discuss in this thread better be called Professional paid sharpening maybe?
Just because someone sharpens a dozen of knives for a commercial kitchen does not make his sharpening "commercial" in the proper sense of the term.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 05:12:03 pm by wootz »

Offline cbwx34

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"Knife Sharpening as a Business" Setup Options (Poll)
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2018, 01:35:16 am »
I tried to define Commercial vs Professional sharpening in a recent thread.
https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=3518.msg22445#msg22445

An abattoir or a meet plant are examples of commercial volume sharpening.
Tormek stock stone lasts for about 1000 knives - it would last for 2 weeks at an abattoir or 3 days at a meat plant, making the cost of sharpening per knife unfeasible to use in those commercial sharpening.
Commercial sharpening only allows under half a dollar per knife in consumables including power bills, and about one dollar total including the sharpener's salary. They also cannot afford more than one head of a dedicated sharpener - and one man can do how many knives on Tormek per shift? Their job description usually includes other than sharpening tasks as well.
Tormek is not suitable for commercial sharpening where they sharpen over a hundred of knives a day.

What you try to discuss in this thread better be called Professional paid sharpening maybe?
Just because someone sharpens a dozen of knives for a commercial kitchen does not make his sharpening "commercial" in the proper sense of the term.

Commercial usually translates to ..."Sharpening as a business"... I'm good with that... but changed it to reflect. ;)
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 01:40:17 am by cbwx34 »

Offline Fernando

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Re: "Knife Sharpening as a Business" Setup Options (Poll)
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2018, 03:29:27 pm »
I am currently with the learning curve of the use of tormek T8, so I am not using it even for the public, until I feel safety and good results with sharpening.

But before tormek, I used a manual machine with controlled angle "I prefer to avoid publishing the brand", in which I sharpened regularly Western kitchen knives at 20 degrees, 40 degrees in total. and up to 1500 grain, always hand honing/stropping with chrome oxide on balsa wood and after on horse leather, the other was the stylists scissors for sharp according to the model between 55 and 60 degrees, up to 4000 grain honing/stropping in the machine only with horse leather with chrome oxide .

I hope now with tormek to start sharpening knives, and with time to get the Japanese stone and the accessory for the scissors, it will be a gradual process.

I have read Wootz's comments on commercial vs professional sharpening, and I definitely apply on the professional, because my previous limit of knives before tormek was 20 weekly cutting tools, "knives, folding knives and scissors", I try to do well , so it lasts between 40 minutes and 1 hour per piece " :-[ I know it's a long time, but it's a hobby not my profession", time that I want to reduce with the use of tormek, without ever thinking about having a commercial sharpening, just increase the number of pieces that I allow to sharpen per week, or apply to some local restaurants that request to sharpen more than 20 knives at a time.

Good day.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 09:50:19 pm by Fernando »

Offline That Sharpening Guy

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Re: "Knife Sharpening as a Business" Setup Options (Poll)
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2018, 11:09:55 pm »
I have a mobile sharpening business and sharpen for both residential and commercial customers. I strictly use my Tormek to sharpen all knives with the exception of using a belt sander to fix broken tips and to remove nicks from knives. Both my residential and commercial customers love that their knives are being sharpened on a water stone system and not a grinder. I do not use the Tormek leather wheel because it is to slow when doing large quantities. I use a low-speed bench grinder with an 8" leather wheel with green honing compound and also sharpen freehand due to time. I use the Wolf Twice as Sharp for all scissors.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 11:15:43 pm by That Sharpening Guy »

Offline cbwx34

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Re: "Knife Sharpening as a Business" Setup Options (Poll)
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2018, 03:00:10 pm »
Thanks for the votes & replies so far... keep 'em coming! :)

Offline stevebot

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Re: "Knife Sharpening as a Business" Setup Options (Poll)
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2018, 04:31:36 pm »
Tormek for primary bevel
Edge with paper wheels (budget) or F Dick RS-150 Duo (deluxe)
Paper wheels gives the sharper edge
RS-150 gives a slicing edge, less skill needed and more repeatable.

BTW, I just finished a gig with my smaller rig, a T4 and an RS-75 SERR. The SERR had a wide enough flat (1/8) to hone straight edges plus has serrated capability. I used a similar rig for the BSA Jamboree. It all fits in the passenger seat of my sports car.

...there was room for his ass and a gallon of gas,
But his balls hung out and he lost them.
Steve Bottorff; author, teacher and consultant on knife and scissor sharpening.

Offline bisonbladesharpening

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Re: "Knife Sharpening as a Business" Setup Options (Poll)
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2018, 12:04:32 am »
I learned mostly from Stevebot's book and video school.
Still use jigs for primary bevel.  Like to use a 1x42 leather belt on my
Viel with tormek honing paste.  Lay it flat so it is running away from me.
Also use paper wheels freehand for fisherman's filet knives.
Texture edge according to end use with spyderco different grit ceramics.
I don't undersatand Wootz only getting 1000 knives out of a Tormek wheel.
Did he mean 10,000.


Offline wootz

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Re: "Knife Sharpening as a Business" Setup Options (Poll)
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2018, 02:12:48 pm »
Stone life varies depending on how often you true it.
For quality bevelling the wheel must be trued regularly, approx. after every 30-50 knives, and in this case a 10" stone wears down to 7" after about 1000 knives.
Tormek says you should not allow the 10" wheel to be less than approx. 180 mm (7") in diameter in order to ensure a satisfactory grinding performance.
Sharpening scissors dramatically decreases the lifespan of a stone.

Offline bisonbladesharpening

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Re: "Knife Sharpening as a Business" Setup Options (Poll)
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2018, 12:13:04 am »
Still very confused on this point.  I don't feel the need to true this often and I also don't see how
20 to 25 truings will take 3 inches off of a wheel.  I'm not questioning your expertise but just wondering
if I am missing something. I do my scissors on a twice as sharp.  Maybe that is the difference.
Best Wishes, Tim


Offline Ken S

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Re: "Knife Sharpening as a Business" Setup Options (Poll)
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2018, 11:38:14 am »
As an amateur sharpener, I have nowhere near the wheel wear or time constraints a professional sharpener would have. (My profile probably fits most of the forum,) I retrue frequently, prefering frequent and light to running out of true. I like to use several very light passes, usually half a number (.05 mm) cuts. Usually three or four of these light passes does the job. I stop when the pass hits the entire wheel.

Retruing this way usually trues the wheel with only a millimeter or less loss in diameter. That's an average of twenty five mm or one inch diameter loss in twenty five retruings. For me, that is a lot of sharpening done with a true wheel.

I look at grinding wheels and other abrasives as consumables, like brakes on a vehicle. Admittedly, they are long term consumables. I see replacement costs as just part of operating costs.

Ken

Offline Rem

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Re: "Knife Sharpening as a Business" Setup Options (Poll)
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2018, 04:31:41 pm »
I am not a gifted DIY type of person, so I was reluctant to initiate a "truing" activity on my grindstone.  Going at it with basically 3 fingers and 7 thumbs, I found it to be extremely easy to do.   Go ahead, try it if you haven't already.  Now I'm an "expert".   Ha ha ......   and you will find that a couple of light passes will not even be measurable on your ruler.   It works really well and is pretty hard to screw up.   Just sayin'.     It's all "true".   Sorry ....       RR

Offline wootz

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Re: "Knife Sharpening as a Business" Setup Options (Poll)
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2018, 07:01:52 pm »
Still very confused on this point.  I don't feel the need to true this often and I also don't see how
20 to 25 truings will take 3 inches off of a wheel.  I'm not questioning your expertise but just wondering
if I am missing something. I do my scissors on a twice as sharp.  Maybe that is the difference.
Best Wishes, Tim

Tim, your doubts should mitigate re-reading the "Lifetime of the Stone" section in the Tormek Handbook.
For softer and thin "food" knives Tormek optimistic estimate is 2000 knives per stone.
Each knife wears away material from the stone surface, which you see accumulating in the trough.
Such mainstream knives you can sharpen in dozens even on a skewed wheel, and therefore truing the wheel after 30-50 of them is acceptable.

However with quality knives you have to true frequently to assure the wheel is flat and square to grind nice bevels, and hard steels of thicker knives wear the stone more quickly.
E.g. when I sharpen high-end knives, I may true the wheel after every 10 knives to assure it is perfectly square and parallel to the Universal Support.

Each truing eats away 1mm of the stone diameter.
Re-grading the stone from coarse to fine and back also eats away its diameter.
In summary, a 10" SG wheel averages for 1000 knives, and SB between 1000 and 2000 because it is denser.

Apologies if how I explain this might sound mentorish, I don't mean it, it is only because I am not a native English speaker, am just trying to clarify clearly
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 07:40:03 am by wootz »

Offline Ken S

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Re: "Knife Sharpening as a Business" Setup Options (Poll)
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2018, 11:33:21 pm »
Wootz touches on a very important consideration. Many of us are not native English speakers. I hope that does not cause any of us to be embarrassed. English just happens to be the native language of this forum. That is neither good nor bad; it just is.

I started a practice a while ago which I encourage others to follow. Whenever I use an English idiom, an expression which has developed a non literal meaning, I try to include (English idiom for ............). Differences in language are the spices which give the stew flavor. They make the forum more interesting if all of us understand them. I encourage all of our members to share (and explain) the treasures of their native languages.

Ken