Author Topic: Diamond wheels vs grind stones  (Read 15681 times)

Offline jeffs55

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 580
  • Student at school of hard knocks.
    • View Profile
Re: Diamond wheels vs grind stones
« Reply #60 on: June 12, 2019, 11:42:45 am »
Antz, I researched the Viel and as shipped the motor is not variable speed. Further, the folks at the dealer wrote that they could not find a variable speed motor for a good price. They also indicated that a more powerful motor would not perform better. The motor is 1/4 horsepower. Shipping to GA USA was $20, may be more to you in HI.
You can use less of more but you cannot make more of less.

Offline Ken S

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6855
    • View Profile
Re: Diamond wheels vs grind stones
« Reply #61 on: June 12, 2019, 02:02:41 pm »
Jeff,

The Viel is essentially sold without a motor. The variable speed motor is from Penn State Industries. It is primarily designed for small lathes, however, it works very well with the Viel, but only if the Viel is modified. Here is a link to one of the discussions covering this on bessex.com.

http://www.bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=310

Viel, or any dealer except sharpeningmadeeasy.com does not have any information about the modified Viel. The bore diameter of the Viel pulleys is half inch (slightly larger than 12 mm). The diameter of the PSI motor shaft is 15 mm. A machine shop can either bore out the pulley or reduce the shaft diameter.
The Viel comes with a six inch diameter drive pulley. Viel also sells a 3 3/4” pulley as a part. (I believe this is the standard pulley for their smaller belt grinder.) The smaller pulley works more efficiently with variable speed.
A custom mounting bracket is required.

I have done a couple conversions "from scratch". I do not recommend doing it this way. It was difficult, frustrating, and expensive. Steve Bottorff at sharpeningmadeeasy.com is a Viel dealer. He has made an arrangement with Viel to provide units with the smaller pulley bored out to 15mm for a very modest surcharge. He also sells the custom mounting plates designed by the bessex group.

Steve's modified Viel and mounting plates have changed conversion from a machine shop project to something easily done in a home shop with an electric drill at much lower cost.

Antz, just before writing this post, I checked the sharpeningmadeeasy website. The Viel conversion page was not there. Nor was an explanation. I will be emailing Steve for clarification. At this point, I would strongly recommend postponing purchasing a Viel until we are certain that the components are available from Steve.

The unmodified Viel is a useful tool as is. In my opinion, the modified version is much more versatile and a useful complement to the Tormek. Using a Scotch Brite extra fine belt on the Viel makes quick work of removing rust and staining in preparation for sharpening with the Tormek.

The modified version is worth the wait.There are several related topics on bessex. I suggest you study them.

Ken

PS Full disclosure: Although I was not the first bessex member to use a modified Viel, I was actively involved in the conversion process and wrote up the conversion to share with the group. I have no financial interest in the project. I have always regarded the Viel as a complement to the Tormek, as does Steve. As such, I do not mind briefly mentioning it on the Tormek forum. As it is not a Tormek profuct, I would prefer that any further discusdion be moved to bessex.com.

Offline john.jcb

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 394
    • View Profile
Re: Diamond wheels vs grind stones
« Reply #62 on: June 12, 2019, 04:31:36 pm »
John, Ken, Rich

Thank you for the responses. I don’t think I’ll be getting a diamond wheel anytime soon. Not at least before I get a Veil belt sander. I was just thinking for those of us who just “must have” something just to have it the 600 grit fine diamond wheel would be a good middle ground if you could only have one. 

Also I do have a kindle version of Wootz book and that’s the exact system I’m trying to accomplish. I’ve been skipping the leather honing wheel and going straight to paper wheels after the SG stone and I’ve never hade knives so sharp. I am only using the supplied white compound that comes with the razor sharp system but I plan on getting a second slotted wheel to use .25 micron diamond paste for the final honing pass to take things to another level.

John,
so when you say you have your sights set on a second leather honing wheel do you mean you will be swapping out honing wheels on the t8? For instance initial deburring on one leather wheel with tormek compound, then swap it out for final deburring on a second leather wheel with diamond paste?

I was thinking about swapping out the honing wheels to utilize the fine honing compound. Lately I have been questioning this as the knives I do for customers are amazingly sharp. No one has asked if I can get them even sharper. I wonder if it is an exercise without much benefit. I do not have a BESS tester so there is really no easy way of even demonstrating the difference. Customers have told me slicing food has gone from a chore to a joy, especially tomatoes.
Sharpen the knife blade
Hone edge until perfection
Cut with joy and ease

Offline Ken S

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6855
    • View Profile
Re: Diamond wheels vs grind stones
« Reply #63 on: June 12, 2019, 05:02:13 pm »
Good point, John.

We should be aware of the expectation levels of the people whose knives we sharpen. Using Knife Grinders as an example, Vadim sharpens knives for professional meat cutters, who probably use their knives more in a work shift than most of us do in multiple years. He also sharpens expensive knives for very particular customers who demand that their drawer queen knives be sharpened to supersonic BESS numbers before probably returning to the drawer.

Vadim's trailblazing work, like a riding tide, has floated all boats. However, the farmers market sharpener who sharpens a hundred knives on a Saturday morning still exceeds his customers' expectations. I would suggest doing a yeoman job sharpening your customers' knives while being aware of more advanced techniques when needed. I suspect this is also the most common way the SJ wheel is used.

Ken

Offline Antz

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 84
  • Diamond Edge Sharpening Hawaii
    • View Profile
Re: Diamond wheels vs grind stones
« Reply #64 on: June 12, 2019, 08:54:25 pm »
Jeff,

Sorry I should have been more clear on my answer. The variable speed Veil is a custom machine that you would have to put together yourself as Ken stated. Steve’s sight at sharpeningmadeeasy.com is the only place that sells the mounting plate and pulley for the modified Veil and you would have to order the motor and controller separately. But the cost is not extravagant. Ken just posted that the link on sharpening made easy sight was missing but lucky for me I bookmarked it https://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/belt.htm

The variable speed version is listed under “DIY sander specials”

You might want to send Steve Botoroff an e-mail to check if he has the parts in stock as that could be why he took the link down.

Antz
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 08:57:26 pm by Antz »
“But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:57‬ ‭

Offline RichColvin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • Ornamental Turner
    • View Profile
    • SharpeningHandbook.info
Re: Diamond wheels vs grind stones
« Reply #65 on: June 12, 2019, 10:54:39 pm »
... We should be aware of the expectation levels of the people whose knives we sharpen ...

Ken’s comment warrants further consideration.  I’m a manager of a group which provides IT “services” to “customers”.  Some of my customers are willing to pay for gold level service; others want only the basics (iron level).  But we think in terms of 3 levels:  Gold, Silver, and Bronze (like the Olympic medals).

For sharpening, maybe it could be:
  • GOLD - Sharpened to a BESS rating <100, and BESS results provided.  This would have to be done in a manner where the customer leaves the item with the sharpener, and the commitment is to get it back in a week (or more).
  • SILVER - Sharpened to a really good level of sharpness, typically shown to be something in the level of BESS level of 100-200.  BESS results not provided — rely only on the good reputation of the sharpener.  Possibly, this would be done offsite (if the sharpener is collecting work at a farmer’s market).
  • BRONZE - Sharpened to a decent level, and sharpening would happen whilst the customer waits.  I’d envision this to be for pocket knives or similar.
The benefit to this approach is that the customer would pay for the level of service they want, and the cost would be based on the cost to the sharpener and the time commitment of the sharpener. 

So, if all of your target market want SILVER or BRONZE level sharpening, then the sharpener need not invest in the tools req’d to provide GOLD level service.

Just some thoughts for consideration.

Kind regards,
Rich
---------------------------
Rich Colvin
www.SharpeningHandbook.info - a reference guide for sharpening
www.ColvinTools.com

You are born weak & frail, and you die weak & frail.  What you do between those is up to you.

Offline Antz

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 84
  • Diamond Edge Sharpening Hawaii
    • View Profile
Re: Diamond wheels vs grind stones
« Reply #66 on: June 12, 2019, 11:57:29 pm »
Ken,
Yes farmers market work should be a balance between quality and speed (bronze level). Higher end sharpening for particular people I would probably do on a weekend or at home. But thanks to Wootz work (and others) we can all have that premium level available at a premium price.

Rich,
I love the way you laid out the gold/silver/bronze service comparison. Now if I could only fit that all on a business card...

Thanks,
Antz
“But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:57‬ ‭