Author Topic: SJ grindstone vs paper wheel  (Read 875 times)

Offline RichColvin

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SJ grindstone vs paper wheel
« on: April 14, 2018, 03:03:05 pm »
I’ve read thru Steve Bottorff’s information about using paper wheels, and I get it about the speed advantage.  But I am limited in bench space and am wondering about the effectiveness of that method vs. using the Japanese stone.  Do both achieve the same level of sharpness, just in different time requirements?

Rich
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Rich Colvin
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Offline Grizz

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Re: SJ grindstone vs paper wheel
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2018, 03:55:05 pm »
I have the T-8 and a SJ-250 and I have no problem getting all my knives super sharp. I don't have a BESS scale but I imagine I'm in the 75-100 range. lots of people swear the paper wheel IS the next level of sharpness. I too don't have anymore room for a paper wheel system, so I will just continue with the sj-250 then the leather honing.
 this is a thread by Wootz on the paper wheels. https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=2963.0

Offline cbwx34

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Re: SJ grindstone vs paper wheel
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2018, 04:30:30 pm »
I’ve read thru Steve Bottorff’s information about using paper wheels, and I get it about the speed advantage.  But I am limited in bench space and am wondering about the effectiveness of that method vs. using the Japanese stone.  Do both achieve the same level of sharpness, just in different time requirements?

Rich

I'm of the opinion that sharpness results is what many say is "90% operator, 10% equipment".  There are a lot of variables in your question, so to say one gets a blade "sharper" I think would be a tough answer.  Like you indicated though... paper wheels will definitely do it quicker.  ;)

I haven't done a "side by side" comparison... but have used both, and think either one will get a blade very sharp.  You may have more options with the paper wheel, for example different compounds, so may depend also on the blade steel you're sharpening.  For example, I sharpened an M390 steel blade in this thread, and posted an idea of the results off the SJ wheel... but according to wootz's reply, the SJ wheel won't work on M390 that may have a better/higher blade steel and/or heat treatment.

Years ago, there was a "sharpening contest" on another forum, and the guy who "won" most often used a very simple sharpening setup, but had used it so long, he had it "dialed in" to achieve fantastic results.

So, my .02... unless you looking for something special, or have a special case... I think you can get great results off the SJ wheel... and with a bit of practice, can achieve .....??  ;)

Offline wootz

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Re: SJ grindstone vs paper wheel
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2018, 02:21:24 am »
Not for the speed alone, and when used for speed, better run on half-RPM buffers to lessen risk of the edge overheating.
Using paper wheels with their stock buffing compound has no advantage over the SJ.
However, slotted paper wheels used with abrasives finer than SJ can further the edge sharpness, obviously - they work as an advanced honing.

Used with diamond or CBN paste/emulsion, they are many sharpeners' preferred method for high-Vanadium "supersteels" - people use them with diamonds or CBN from coarse to the finest.

Paper wheels can be run on your Tormek in place of the stone wheel with a bushing/reducer, to hone with the Universal Support in the horizontal sleeves or your home-made vertical base for edge-trailing honing inserted in the horizontal sleeves, or our FVB for T-7.
https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=2635.0

I ran paper wheels on Tormek for some time, using an aluminium bushing (reducer) with the following specs:
Outer Diameter 3/4"
Inner Diameter 12mm
Length 42mm

We now get knives sharper than DE razors with Tormek + paper wheels combination, as shown in our YouTube video, but that sharp edge is simply in the proof of what is achievable with knife sharpness, not practical.
https://youtu.be/ZDPXqAK9Xr0

To keep diamonds on the paper wheel, the trick I learned from KWAKSTER is to rub them in with oil having tackifiers, like chain saw oil.

BUT unless you sharpen a "supersteel", for real life SJ is all the most people need.
Off the SJ, I get an edge sharp at 130-110 BESS - see our Sharpness Chart what this means in practical terms.
Very few users need a knife sharper than that for real life practical use.

« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 09:15:02 am by wootz »

Offline Grizz

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Re: SJ grindstone vs paper wheel
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2018, 03:26:44 am »
it will be interesting to see the extra fine diamond wheel perform against the paper wheels and the sj wheel.
i'll have to wait till july to find out.

Offline Ken S

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Re: SJ grindstone vs paper wheel
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2018, 01:13:43 pm »


I'm of the opinion that sharpness results is what many say is "90% operator, 10% equipment".  There are a lot of variables in your question, so to say one gets a blade "sharper" I think would be a tough answer.  Like you indicated though... paper wheels will definitely do it quicker.  ;)

So, my .02... unless you looking for something special, or have a special case... I think you can get great results off the SJ wheel... and with a bit of practice, can achieve .....??  ;)
[/quote]

Thus saith CB. Although it pains me to admit it, CB is spot on.  :)

I have recently been working with the DWC-200 (and DWF-200) diamond wheels. They are primarily designed for the T2. However, in my opinion, they really shine when paired with the T4 and the arsenal of Tormek jigs. Stig suggested something to me a while back which has modified my technique. Based on his suggestion, I now finish each stage of grinding with some very light passes. I do this with all grinding wheels. The difference with the DWC-200 was significant enough to make me question the need for switching to the DWF-200 for most sharpening.

I have since learned that diamond wheels work best (and last longer) with consistently very light grinding pressure. For a traditional Tormek user, this is definitely a relearning situation. I do not believe we will realize the full potential of the new diamond wheels until we learn the proper technique for using them and gain some experience. These revolutionary new grinding wheels will only advance the Tormek if the Tormek user also advances.

I do not own paper wheels. I have seen them demonstrated by a real expert. My dry grinder may end up being converted to paper wheels someday. The two paper wheels do different functions. The hard, slotted wheel must be loaded with carborundum or a similar abrasive material. Of the two wheels, this one seems the most versatile.

The second wheel is loaded with a wax based polishing abrasive. This wheel requires a higher speed motor to heat the wax to melting temperature. Care is essential to prevent overheating of the blade. This does not preclude using paper wheels; it does require more care.
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I have a spare leather honing wheel which I load with valve grinding compound. This does not polish as well as Tormek compound, however, it cuts more aggressively and is better for rust removal. I like having the choice and the option of using both.

Back to CB's dictum, I believe a lot of practice mixed with the innovative willingness to try new things is a powerful combination.

Ken

Offline cbwx34

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Re: SJ grindstone vs paper wheel
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2018, 03:25:25 pm »
it will be interesting to see the extra fine diamond wheel perform against the paper wheels and the sj wheel.
i'll have to wait till july to find out.

Finish wise, I doubt they'll compare... a 1200g diamond wheel vs. a 4000g waterstone (that can get finer in use), will be noticeably different.  If anything, the 1200g diamond will "set the tool up" for a better finish off the waterstone (or leather wheel).

But, if the wheel leaves a finish typical of other diamond stones in that category, it will definitely leave a great edge (for knives anyway). 👍

Offline Grizz

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Re: SJ grindstone vs paper wheel
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2018, 08:37:42 pm »
I believe you are probably correct Curt. I am very very satisfied with the SJ and the diamond wheels will surely help in shaping a tool a little quicker than the SG has been for me. I don't see any need for me to use the paper wheels as the SJ does such a good job at getting knives to a usable sharpness.