Author Topic: Question about Tormek, worksharp and knives steels  (Read 3624 times)

Offline Pido

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Question about Tormek, worksharp and knives steels
« on: May 18, 2018, 09:14:13 am »
Hello ! I am french and my english is not perfect :)
I am a total fan of good knives and I have a little collection.
Many outdoor knives in 1095 steel, and many folders in s30v,s90v,s110v,m390,cts-204p and 20cv.

I have a worksharp ken onion edition, it works great for my outdoor knives, but for sharpening my folders, it is extremly hard to not break the tip of the knives... All of my folders worth about 200-500€, so I am really disapointed when I fail a knife tip...
So I would like to know in the first time if we can sharpen those steels with the original wheel of the Tormek and finish with the japanese one, and in a second time, if we can have a great tip on our knives. On the tormek website we can read that a japanese water stone can mirror finish a knife.
If someone could post a picture of one knife with mirror finish with the SJ stone ?
If someone have an experience with the Tormek and the worksharp for a comparison ?

Thanks a lot for helping me. Stay sharp :)

Offline cbwx34

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Re: Question about Tormek, worksharp and knives steels
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2018, 04:00:30 pm »
Hello ! I am french and my english is not perfect :)
I am a total fan of good knives and I have a little collection.
Many outdoor knives in 1095 steel, and many folders in s30v,s90v,s110v,m390,cts-204p and 20cv.

I have a worksharp ken onion edition, it works great for my outdoor knives, but for sharpening my folders, it is extremly hard to not break the tip of the knives... All of my folders worth about 200-500€, so I am really disapointed when I fail a knife tip...
So I would like to know in the first time if we can sharpen those steels with the original wheel of the Tormek and finish with the japanese one, and in a second time, if we can have a great tip on our knives. On the tormek website we can read that a japanese water stone can mirror finish a knife.
If someone could post a picture of one knife with mirror finish with the SJ stone ?
If someone have an experience with the Tormek and the worksharp for a comparison ?

Thanks a lot for helping me. Stay sharp :)

Welcome to the forum.

It has been pointed out in other threads... (Examples: here and here)... that the SJ wheel may not be the best choice for polishing out the higher end steels that you mentioned.

If you want to go the "Tormek route" using only the Tormek, I would consider the T-4 model, and purchase a couple of extra leather wheels, that you can then load with diamond compounds to polish out the blade.  (I would also replace the nut with a Locking Knob to make switching between leather wheels easier).  (There are other options for polishing out the blade... this is if you just want to use the Tormek).

The Tormek will not damage the tip of your knife... and in fact you can repair the tips you have damaged.

My .02... hope it helps.

Offline Sharpco

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Re: Question about Tormek, worksharp and knives steels
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2018, 11:09:48 am »
To avoid spoiling the tip when sharpening a knife with a work sharp, the belt must stop before the tip passes completely through the belt.

Offline Pido

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Re: Question about Tormek, worksharp and knives steels
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2018, 02:11:52 pm »
To avoid spoiling the tip when sharpening a knife with a work sharp, the belt must stop before the tip passes completely through the belt.

I do in this way :/

Offline Fernando

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Re: Question about Tormek, worksharp and knives steels
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2018, 04:40:48 pm »
Hello ! I am french and my english is not perfect :)
I am a total fan of good knives and I have a little collection.
Many outdoor knives in 1095 steel, and many folders in s30v,s90v,s110v,m390,cts-204p and 20cv.

I have a worksharp ken onion edition, it works great for my outdoor knives, but for sharpening my folders, it is extremly hard to not break the tip of the knives... All of my folders worth about 200-500€, so I am really disapointed when I fail a knife tip...
So I would like to know in the first time if we can sharpen those steels with the original wheel of the Tormek and finish with the japanese one, and in a second time, if we can have a great tip on our knives. On the tormek website we can read that a japanese water stone can mirror finish a knife.
If someone could post a picture of one knife with mirror finish with the SJ stone ?
If someone have an experience with the Tormek and the worksharp for a comparison ?

Thanks a lot for helping me. Stay sharp :)

My personal opinion, is that the wheel that I brought from the tormek factory is not the best option or is not an optimal option to sharpen that type of steels, the steels s30v, s90v, m390 including the S35VN are very hard steels, easily surpass the 60HRC of hardness, I have sharpened those knives with diamond stones, currently tormek has available the diamond wheels, with which you can sharpen without problems these steels, and for the tip of the knife do not worry, with tormek the tip of your knives will remain great

What I am very sure of is that with the high cost of your knives you will appreciate a good sharpening system like this, as long as you use the correct abrasive wheel for the type of steel to sharpen.

Offline Ken S

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Re: Question about Tormek, worksharp and knives steels
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2018, 09:00:03 pm »
Pido,

The SG-200 grinding wheel which came with your T4 has been Tormek's workhorse for many years. It was designed for sharpening tools and knives of carbon steel, although it is also used for harder steels. Recently Tormek began making two wheels designed for harder steels, including carbide. The Diamond Wheel Coarse (DWC-200) at 360grit and the the Diamond Wheel Fine (DWF-200) at 600 gritwork very well with the T4. Tormek only lists them for the T2, however, the T2 and the T4 are essentially the same body. They can also be used with the T7/8. They must be used dry. This is importand information direct from Tormek.

If you decide to purchase them one at a time, I would suggest beginning with the fine (600 grit) wheel. That is designed for day in day out duty with the T2. You can add the DWC 360grit wheel if you want a quicker cutting stone. I have found the 360grit DWC cuts as fast or faster than the 220grit SG-200.

I think the two diamond wheels add new dimensions to the T2.

Ken

Offline cbwx34

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Re: Question about Tormek, worksharp and knives steels
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2018, 01:35:39 am »
Pido,

...The Diamond Wheel Coarse (DWC-200) at 360grit and the the Diamond Wheel Fine (DWF-200) at 600 gritwork very well with the T4. Tormek only lists them for the T2, however, the T2 and the T4 are essentially the same body. They can also be used with the T7/8. They must be used dry. This is importand information direct from Tormek.



I thought the official word was... we don't know?

...
The Diamond Wheels for the T-2 are intended to be used with the T-2, which is, as many of you know, especially designed for a specific target group (chefs and professional kitchens). The T-2 is designed to be used without water, and we have not tested the compatible diamond wheels with neither water nor the ACC-150 Anti-Corrosion Concentrate. Please note that the new diamond wheels for the T-8 (and previous larger models) has diamond also on the side and is tested for water sharpening (with the ACC-150). The diamond wheels for the T-2 has a label glued on the side and we do not know how water or other liquids might affect the glue. 

Kind regards,
Marie - Marketing Manager

... which, BTW, is even more confusing, considering they recommend water for the larger diamond stones, because water... "prolongs the life of the wheel and provides a finer surface." of the larger T-8 wheels (a quote from the same thread)...

...
The life of the wheel is very much related to how it’s used. It is very important to always apply a low pressure when sharpening. If you are sharpening with a new diamond wheel, a very low pressure should be applied. The diamond grits on a new diamond wheel are very sharp and sensitive to high pressure. We also recommend to always use water when sharpening with the diamond wheel, as it prolongs the life of the wheel and provides a finer surface. When you sharpen with water, remember to always use the ACC-150 Anti-Corrosion Concentrate in the water to prevent rust on the diamond wheel.
...
Marie - Marketing Manager, Tormek

So, why water for one, and not the other?  ???

Offline Ken S

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Re: Question about Tormek, worksharp and knives steels
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2018, 02:26:31 am »
I am responsible for unintentionally causing this misunderstanding. I have been very positive about the T4 since I first acquired mine in 2014. Being a tinker, I wanted to find out what it could do. When my T2 arrived, I realized that in many respects, the T2 and T4 were alike. I was already using Norton 3X and a CBN wheel on my T4. Why not diamond wheels with the T4?

Both the DWF-200 and the DWC-200 worked very for me with the T4. This was before the three new larger diamond wheels were announced. When they were announced with Anti Corrosion Compound (ACC), I made the incorrect assumption that the two smaller diamond wheels were of the same construction as the three larger diamond wheels. I later found out that the two smaller diamond wheels were exclusively for the dry use with the T2.

My error.

Ken

Offline SharpenADullWitt

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Re: Question about Tormek, worksharp and knives steels
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2018, 07:56:44 am »
The reason for no water use with the T2 wheels, is your local health departments and :
http://www.nsf.org/consumer-resources/what-is-nsf-certification

The T2 was designed to be run dry, to meet regulatory requirements of the respective countries.  Where you would simply use a light touch, run the knife dry, then buff and then wash/rinse/sanitize. (three step process)  Although based on discussions with some chef's I know, many knives are actually just done via the wash (by hand) rinse, method.
Besides all that, it helps keep knives (a consumable/equipment/tax deduction), sharp, but the tool itself is a consumable/equipment/tax deduction.
Favorite line, from a post here:
8)

Yeah you know Tormek have reached sharpening nirvana when you get a prosthetic hand as part of the standard package :/)

Offline Ken S

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Re: Question about Tormek, worksharp and knives steels
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2018, 11:55:52 am »
SADW,

Very informative post. Thank you for posting it. As I recall, you have posted valuable related information before concerning knife handle regulations.

I am puzzled as to why meeting food handling regulatory requirements is not a prominent point ((yes, selling point) with the T2. Regulations no doubt vary in different countries, however, I can't imagine that there are not generally accepted good health and safety practices. Wouldn't these practices be a core part of chef and restaurant management training?

The T2 went through a very long development program. For quite a while, it was only available for sale in Sweden. This seems very logical; it gave Tormek's development team time to work with restaurant professionals. I can not imagine Tormek not having access to restaurant industry regulatory and food preparation expertise either through its own staff or expert consultants.

I would expect any company involved in food service to include the usual "consult your local health and safety government organization" caveat in its product literature and training. I am not a professional sharpener, nor am I involved in food service. In areas like first aid, the Red Cross sponsors training and certification. Does any such training and certification for knife sharpeners exist?

In the telephone industry I remember an organization with the acronym BISCI. This organization sponsored an intense forty hour class in proper working with telephone wires, including coax and fiber optic wires. BISCI Certified was a recognized industry credential.

With instructional material, including printed and video, we can never get away from marketing. This can be a positive thing. A potential customer who receives good product information from a company is more likely to become an actual customer. Tormek has an excellent product line, including the specialized T2; they are the world leaders. Tormek also has knowledgeable staff and a fine new studio teaching facility in house. With all of these resources available in today's you tube climate, I do not understand why video marketing and instruction is not a higher priority.

Ken

Offline cbwx34

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Re: Question about Tormek, worksharp and knives steels
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2018, 01:35:17 pm »
I am responsible for unintentionally causing this misunderstanding. I have been very positive about the T4 since I first acquired mine in 2014. Being a tinker, I wanted to find out what it could do. When my T2 arrived, I realized that in many respects, the T2 and T4 were alike. I was already using Norton 3X and a CBN wheel on my T4. Why not diamond wheels with the T4?

Both the DWF-200 and the DWC-200 worked very for me with the T4. This was before the three new larger diamond wheels were announced. When they were announced with Anti Corrosion Compound (ACC), I made the incorrect assumption that the two smaller diamond wheels were of the same construction as the three larger diamond wheels. I later found out that the two smaller diamond wheels were exclusively for the dry use with the T2.

My error.

Ken

I don't see you as the source of "error" in this.  Like I said before, no great leap to wonder why the T-2 wheels can't be run wet... and there's no mention that the diamond portion is any different between the wheels... just that the T-2 version has a label on it.

The reason for no water use with the T2 wheels, is your local health departments and :
http://www.nsf.org/consumer-resources/what-is-nsf-certification

The T2 was designed to be run dry, to meet regulatory requirements of the respective countries.  Where you would simply use a light touch, run the knife dry, then buff and then wash/rinse/sanitize. (three step process)  Although based on discussions with some chef's I know, many knives are actually just done via the wash (by hand) rinse, method.
Besides all that, it helps keep knives (a consumable/equipment/tax deduction), sharp, but the tool itself is a consumable/equipment/tax deduction.

...
I am puzzled as to why meeting food handling regulatory requirements is not a prominent point ((yes, selling point) with the T2. Regulations no doubt vary in different countries, however, I can't imagine that there are not generally accepted good health and safety practices. Wouldn't these practices be a core part of chef and restaurant management training?
...

I thought this had been brought up before... but I don't see where the T-2 is "NSF Certified".

Offline Ken S

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Re: Question about Tormek, worksharp and knives steels
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2018, 02:02:06 pm »
Good questions, CB.

When I was researching CBN wheels for the Tormek, I wanted to have the option of using them wet. I consulted two major vendors. Woodturningwonders told me flat out that their wheels could only be used dry. They have later voided their warranty if their wheels are used wet. D-Way told me that their wheels can be used either wet or dry. They did not mention that there would be a rust problem if an anti corrosion agent like Honerite Gold was not used. I have used my D-Way wheels wet with Honerite Gold with no rust problem (and no dust problem).

I have since learned that CBN wheels may be constructed of different materials. There may also be such differences in diamond wheel construction. The target market for CBN wheels is high speed dry grinders (primarily woodturners). A Tormek designer designing a T2 exclusively for dry use would have no need to include wet use in his parameters, especially if it involved an increase in cost. The diamond wheels for the T8 came much later. The T2 wheels have never been marketed for the T4. They just happen to work very well with the T4 (when used dry).

Ken

Offline SharpenADullWitt

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Re: Question about Tormek, worksharp and knives steels
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2018, 11:13:39 pm »

I thought this had been brought up before... but I don't see where the T-2 is "NSF Certified".

You are correct, it is not certified.  I do not have any idea if/when they will submit it for that, but based on the prior model and what I have seen on marketing/how/to who sold, it is my belief that it has been designed for it.
Favorite line, from a post here:
8)

Yeah you know Tormek have reached sharpening nirvana when you get a prosthetic hand as part of the standard package :/)