Topic: new diamond wheels D.F. 250

[bobl]

I just put the T2 wheel on to my T7, I am now complete. WOW -- what a Flipping great result, razor sharp. So, when the DF 250 comes out, which is just a bigger version of the T2 wheel in the same diamond grit, I will be getting it. There is still good use of the SJ250 which I will always have, but as a knife grinder with specialist chefs to satisfy, this new wheel is just what I need.

[Ken S]

Could anyone tell me please the Tormek diamond wheels technical specifications or where I can read it?

Are they aluminium, steel or something else based?
What diamonds are used: polycrystalline or monocrystalline?
What bonding is: nickel-electroplating or else?
What is the diamond layer thickness?
What warranty they come with - lifetime or ...?

Hello Wootz and the rest of you,

The Tormek Diamond Wheels are constructed with a precision machined steel frame. The frame is coated with a single layer of diamond grit that is electrolytically anchored with nickel. The type of diamond we're using is confidential and cannot be shared publicly. The bonding is, like you (Wootz) is suggesting, nickel-electroplating. The diamond wheels are covered of the general Tormek warranty against peeling.

The life of the wheel is very much related to how it’s used. It is very important to always apply a low pressure when sharpening. If you are sharpening with a new diamond wheel, a very low pressure should be applied. The diamond grits on a new diamond wheel are very sharp and sensitive to high pressure. We also recommend to always use water when sharpening with the diamond wheel, as it prolongs the life of the wheel and provides a finer surface. When you sharpen with water, remember to always use the ACC-150 Anti-Corrosion Concentrate in the water to prevent rust on the diamond wheel.

Here's a link to the information sheet with all the information: https://www.tormek.com/media/1911657/information-tormek-diamond-wheels-en.pdf

Kind regards,
Marie - Marketing Manager, Tormek

Thank you, Marie. I do not believe any of were doubting that the new Tormek diamond wheels are anything except first class; we are just curious. This is a new and exciting direction for Tormek. Of course, we are interested in learning all we can. Several of us have already preordered the combination sets.

I have the same question about using the 200 mm diamond wheels wet with ACC. I like them very much, especially with the T4. Tormek has spoiled me with dust free sharpening. Dust free and diamond sharp, what a powerful combination!

Ken

[Fernando]

there is a subject that is spinning in my head, and I do not know if it is because I am new to the use of tormek, or because I have no idea of working with diamond wheels refrigerated in anticorrosive liquids.

If the idea of the anticorrosive compound in water, is not to affect the abrasive wheel, which as far as I have seen, seems to have a short duration, or a short useful life.

why not think differently and not use water, and better to use another type of liquid that does not generate corrosion in the metal.

Would it be too crazy to think about changing the water for another liquid that does the same? "avoid dust, heat, rust, etc." such as alcohol? which additionally does not freeze, or use usp grade mineral oil,
none of the above would generate corrosion, would have a useful life, and at a lower cost.

Is there any additional feature that has that additive in the water that is not achieved with any other liquid?

[wootz]

Thank you Marie and Ken!
The last sentence in the diamond wheel pdf made me smile "Do NOT use the TT-50 Turning Tool on the Diamond Wheel." 

Fernando, people do use other than water liquids, e.g. metalworking fluids. But,  lubricants in them make grinding  less aggressive and therefore slower, and they often stain polished blades. Most liquids other than water are irritants to eye, skin or respiratory. Water with some anti-corrosion agent is cheaper, clearer and won't stain.

If the wheel frame were all-aluminium, we wouldn't even need the anti-corrosion agent, but steel has a big advantage over aluminium which you appreciate when you drop something hard on your wheel - in case of aluminium you  will have to repair the dent, in case of steel mostly not.

[Ken S]

This is an interesting topic. The new Tormek information recommends the Anti Corrosion Compound for use with all of the Tormek grinding wheels, not just the new diamond wheels. This sounds like another good exercise for my 3/4” testing chisels!

I think we (yes, I must include myself) have a tendency to be "penny wise and pound foolish" (an English idiom for in British money overly careful with small amounts of money and foolish with larger amounts. While we may gladly spend almost a thousand dollars (US) for a three diamond wheel kit, we are reluctant to spend a few pennies for ACC. In fairness to us, using anything except water is a new concept with us.

Using CBN wheels, I quickly learned the value of Honerite Gold, another brand of anti rust compound. With my steel CBN wheels and reducing bushings, plain water alone would cause them to quickly rust.

We have a bit of a learning curve with both diamond wheels and ACC. I look forward to it.

Ken

[Grizz]

Thank you Marie and Ken!
The last sentence in the diamond wheel pdf made me smile "Do NOT use the TT-50 Turning Tool on the Diamond Wheel." 

Fernando, people do use other than water liquids, e.g. metalworking fluids. But,  lubricants in them make grinding  less aggressive and therefore slower, and they often stain polished blades. Most liquids other than water are irritants to eye, skin or respiratory. Water with some anti-corrosion agent is cheaper, clearer and won't stain.

If the wheel frame were all-aluminium, we wouldn't even need the anti-corrosion agent, but steel has a big advantage over aluminium which you appreciate when you drop something hard on your wheel - in case of aluminium you  will have to repair the dent, in case of steel mostly not.

yep wootz, that caught my eye too.  know somewhere down the line someone will ask that question and we will be ready with a quick answer ! ! same thing with antifreeze, Tormek says no no on the antifreeze, probably to the point it will void the warranty on the diamond wheels.

[marie]

Could anyone tell me please the Tormek diamond wheels technical specifications or where I can read it?

Are they aluminium, steel or something else based?
What diamonds are used: polycrystalline or monocrystalline?
What bonding is: nickel-electroplating or else?
What is the diamond layer thickness?
What warranty they come with - lifetime or ...?

Hello Wootz and the rest of you,

The Tormek Diamond Wheels are constructed with a precision machined steel frame. The frame is coated with a single layer of diamond grit that is electrolytically anchored with nickel. The type of diamond we're using is confidential and cannot be shared publicly. The bonding is, like you (Wootz) is suggesting, nickel-electroplating. The diamond wheels are covered of the general Tormek warranty against peeling.

The life of the wheel is very much related to how it’s used. It is very important to always apply a low pressure when sharpening. If you are sharpening with a new diamond wheel, a very low pressure should be applied. The diamond grits on a new diamond wheel are very sharp and sensitive to high pressure. We also recommend to always use water when sharpening with the diamond wheel, as it prolongs the life of the wheel and provides a finer surface. When you sharpen with water, remember to always use the ACC-150 Anti-Corrosion Concentrate in the water to prevent rust on the diamond wheel.

Here's a link to the information sheet with all the information: https://www.tormek.com/media/1911657/information-tormek-diamond-wheels-en.pdf

Kind regards,
Marie - Marketing Manager, Tormek

Are the T2 wheels the same manufacture, and would there be benefit to using them with water?
I can say, after getting a T2 that I got to try the other day, it really has put a smile on multiple faces.  Takes as much time to get it out and setup as it does to sharpen a knife that is just starting to get dull, and back to work in under two minutes.

Hello SharpenADullWitt,

We have several manufacturers for our diamond wheels. I cannot share any more information than that, I hope you understand.

The Diamond Wheels for the T-2 are intended to be used with the T-2, which is, as many of you know, especially designed for a specific target group (chefs and professional kitchens). The T-2 is designed to be used without water, and we have not tested the compatible diamond wheels with neither water nor the ACC-150 Anti-Corrosion Concentrate. Please note that the new diamond wheels for the T-8 (and previous larger models) has diamond also on the side and is tested for water sharpening (with the ACC-150). The diamond wheels for the T-2 has a label glued on the side and we do not know how water or other liquids might affect the glue. 

Kind regards,
Marie - Marketing Manager

[Ken S]

Thank you, Marie, for your informative reply. As is so often the case with interesting subjects, good answers generate more questions. I realize that Tormek originally designed the diamond wheels for the T2 and dry use. I also found that the diamond wheels are "plug and play" with the T4. I am delighted with how well the diamond wheels work with the T4. If the posdibility of loosening a label is the only constraint to being able to use these marvelous diamond wheels with the T4, I would gladly scrap the label.

My second question concerns the water and ACC depth when using the side of the grinding wheel. I will find out soon, however, is more water depth required when using the side of the wheel? If si, is there any constraint with the T4 or older T7 water trough?

Again, thank you Marie. It is good for Tormek and the forum to work together.

Ken

[cbwx34]

The Diamond Wheels for the T-2 are intended to be used with the T-2, which is, as many of you know, especially designed for a specific target group (chefs and professional kitchens). The T-2 is designed to be used without water, and we have not tested the compatible diamond wheels with neither water nor the ACC-150 Anti-Corrosion Concentrate. Please note that the new diamond wheels for the T-8 (and previous larger models) has diamond also on the side and is tested for water sharpening (with the ACC-150). The diamond wheels for the T-2 has a label glued on the side and we do not know how water or other liquids might affect the glue. 

Kind regards,
Marie - Marketing Manager

I'll ask what I hope everyone else is thinking.... Why not? 

Seems no great leap (and I mean beyond forum members) that someone is going to look at the T-2 diamond wheel, and think, "Hey, that'll fit on the T-4!"

Plus it would seem like another avenue to sell them.  Diamonds are becoming the "go to" avenue for many of the newer steels in knives.

Don't understand the disconnect. 

[Ken S]

CB,

This is terrible; we are thinking alike again.      Both the DWF-200 and the rubber honing wheel were off my T2 and on the T4 almost soon as the T2 arrived. At that point, I knew that I needed a
DWC-200. Incidentally, The letters stand for Diamond Wheel Fine or Coarse; 200 is the wheel diameter in millimeters.

This reminds me of the Corning engineer who brought a lens for a locomotive headlight home, only to have his clever wife discover that the glass lens worked very for baking. We call it Pyrex today. I think Tormek designed a far more useful, versatile product than they imagined.

While the new threesome of 250mm diamond wheels will no doubt far outshine the present two 200mm diamond wheels, Tormek has designed very useful products with the smaller diamond wheels. I hope Tormek will let them shine in their own right.

Ken

[stevebot]

The new Tormek information recommends the Anti Corrosion Compound for use with all of the Tormek grinding wheels, not just the new diamond wheels.

Using CBN wheels, I quickly learned the value of Honerite Gold, another brand of anti rust compound. With my steel CBN wheels and reducing bushings, plain water alone would cause them to quickly rust.

Hs anyone worked out another substitute for Tormek ACC?

[Ken S]

Interesting question, Steve. I would be more interested in learning how long the diluted solution (ACC) can be used before it stops being effective. To the best of my knowledge, Tormek has not stated this.

I hope Tormek will eventually offer 200 mm diamond grinding wheels which may be used wet with the T4.

Ken

[cbwx34]

Hs anyone worked out another substitute for Tormek ACC?

No... but I am now trying an alternative method....

I'm not convinced that the diamond stones need to be run in a "water bath" to be effective. (Why doesn't the T-4 stone need this... appears the same to me....).  Anyway, so I just mixed a small amount, put it in a spray bottle, and just spray the diamond wheel enough to keep it wet (I watch for a bit of water to build up on the knife as I sharpen, and if it goes away, I give the wheel another quick spray).  When done, I hold a stiff nylon brush followed by a towel against the stone to clean it up.

Only done a few knives this way, but so far, no ill results.  Regular diamond sharpening stones can be used dry or with just a bit of water, and cleaned with a brush after.  I see no difference that require the Tormek diamond wheels be run in a "bath"?

The 'regular' stones need the "water bath" to remove both metal and "stone debris" i.e. "slurry" (just wet the stone and remove the water and sharpen something, and see what builds up the most... stone debris).  Since the diamond stones don't do this, and I don't see a lot of the metal getting removed by running it in a water bath (hold a towel against the stone and see how much "black" comes off after using it)... combined with the expense of the ACC... this may be a better alternative... for me anyway.

One other thing I found... and not sure if this is a defect or not... but the water can get into the diamond wheel on the back side.  I discovered this when I removed the wheel and leaned it against something and found water drained out.  ACC water or not... I'm thinking that can't be good over time. 

Interesting question, Steve. I would be more interested in learning how long the diluted solution (ACC) can be used before it stops being effective. To the best of my knowledge, Tormek has not stated this.

I hope Tormek will eventually offer 200 mm diamond grinding wheels which may be used wet with the T4.

Ken

"Honerite Gold" doesn't state an "expiration" either... makes me think that there isnt' one?  However, I can tell you that after a couple of weeks, I found things growing in a mixture of ACC I pre-mixed (that hadn't even been used yet)... so I wouldn't make the mistake of "pre-mixing" a batch like I did, (that also influenced my decision to try the above approach).

I think the T-4 diamond stones can be used wet if wanted.... I doubt there is a difference, other than the label that Tormek said might come off.  Could at least be sprayed like I'm trying above.

Obviously, not what Tormek instructs... so try at your own risk!  Input on this idea welcome!

[Ken S]

 and we have not tested the compatible diamond wheels with neither water nor the ACC-150 Anti-Corrosion Concentrate.

To me, this statement reads very differently than stating that we have tested and found the DWF-200 and DWC-200 incompatable with either plain water or a solution of water and ACC. Tormek markets these diamond wheels for the T2 and to be used dry. I have not read anything definitive stating that they will not work with the T4. From my personal experience, I have found them to work very well dry with the T4. I have not tried them wet.

Adding to the confusion, a major vendor of CBN wheels has stated that using his wheels wet voids his warranty. I do not doubt that there is a problem, however, I have been told that the problem only happens when the wheels are left in the water trough for long periods. Will my occasional use and fastidious drying of the wheels cause a problem? I do not know, however, I doubt it.

Tormek purchases diamond wheels from several manufacturers. I have no problem with this. I hope Tormek will eventually switch production of the 200mm wheels to the company which manufactures the wet or dry 250mm grinding wheels. I believe Tormek is missing a good market by not providing diamond wheels for the T4. (Please add a 1200 grit wheel to the line up.) I would be perfectly happy to forego the side of the wheel abrasive in the smaller size.

I agree with Rich Colvin that the DS-250 or DWS-200 325 grit diamond wheels are Tormek's fastest cutting wheels. Surprisingly, I have found that they cut considerably faster than the 220 grit SG wheels. They are the closest thing Tormek has ever sold to a coarse stone. I would much prefer a Tormek coarse stone, diamond or not to using a dry grinder.

Ken

[Sigs]

OK - I have a different question - if you are building your business which comes first - the SJ-250, or the diamond wheels?