Author Topic: diamond wheels, first attempt  (Read 4558 times)

Online Ken S

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diamond wheels, first attempt
« on: June 08, 2018, 08:30:55 pm »
My first attempt trying to use the new diamond wheels was a surprise. In fact, it was a disaster. I used my T8, the coarse diamond wheel, and water with the recommended Anti Corrosion Compound. I thought everything was by the book.

My plan was to begin by flattening the back of a chisel. I gradually filled the water trough until the water level almost covered the diamond abrasive on the side of the wheel. Then disaster struck; water came cascading out of the trough.

I am not posting this to be negative about the new new diamond wheels. I do not know what caused the flood. My water trough is not cracked. I am posting this because I might have possibly done something wrong. Someone, or multiple someones, might make the same mistake and blindly blame the Tormek. I like to think I am more open minded.

I did not get far enough along to see how much of the side is usable when used wet.

I have worked with CBN wheels before. CBN wheels are non absorbent. I assume diamond wheels are also non absorbent. With the CBN wheels, I premeasured water and Honerite Gold. Tormek could publish similar numbers, for the T4, T7, and T8. The numbers for the T7 should include different amounts for the older and redesigned water troughs.  The measurements for all models should include numbers for use with just the face of the wheel and for using the edge.

I am leaving the jury out on this. I am contacting support. It is after closing time now in Sweden until Monday morning. I will report support's reply. I will also continue exploring for an answer.

I will keep you posted.

Please see my later reply for the second attempt and the solution.

Ken
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 12:20:32 am by Ken S »

Offline cbwx34

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Re: diamond wheels, first attempt
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2018, 08:45:41 pm »
...
 I gradually filled the water trough until the water level almost covered the diamond abrasive on the side of the wheel. Then disaster struck; water came cascading out of the trough.

I am not posting this to be negative about the new new diamond wheels. I do not know what caused the flood. My water trough is not cracked.
...

I've seen that when "prepping" the T-4 and slowly adding water... there seems to be a point where the wheel will start slinging water out of the trough.  Add a little more, and it stops.  So... maybe try again with a bit more water... and see what happens?

Online Ken S

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Re: diamond wheels, first attempt
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2018, 09:06:04 pm »
CB,

I will try your filling suggestion. At this point, the prime suspect is an uninformed operator.

I have not encountered your slinging water problem with the T4; I will investigate.

My next step is to verify that the Tormek is sitting level and very gradually add water from a graduate until I notice spillage. I have seen both a T7 and a T4 run all day at a woodworking show with almost no spillage. (I was carefully checking this.) We will get to the bottom of this.

Ken

Offline cbwx34

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Re: diamond wheels, first attempt
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2018, 09:25:10 pm »
I have not encountered your slinging water problem with the T4; I will investigate.
...

Not really a problem... more of an "anomaly"... no need to investigate.  It's not so much that it causes an issue (on the T-4)... just thought it might be a related situation worth mentioning.

Online Ken S

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Re: diamond wheels, first attempt
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2018, 09:36:30 pm »
It is an interesting issue. It is also one which should be corrected.

Ken

Offline Grizz

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Re: diamond wheels, first attempt
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2018, 12:11:07 am »
perhaps we can only use the outer third of the diamond wheel when using the side ????? 

Online Ken S

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Re: diamond wheels, first attempt
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2018, 12:21:26 am »
Later reply, with solution

I started my second attempt essentially the same way as the first attempt. The only difference was the amount of fluid.

With the first attempt, I tried filling until the water level almost covered all of the side abrasive. At 700ml, I first noticed the water spillage. I proceeded more slowly with the second session. I don't remember the height click I used for the first attempt. For the second attempt, I used the highest full click.

I had no spilling at 450 ml. I added another 50ml plus another 20ml to compensate for the ACC. Still no spilling. With that amount of fluid, the side abrasive was almost covered. When I tipped the end of the chisel down to the bottom of the abrasive, everything worked fine. No spillage.

I accept full responsibility for overfilling the water trough. If I had looked more closely, I should have noticed the fill line. While it does not excuse my oversight, I do think the instructions might have been more thorough.

In future posts on the diamond wheels, I plan to develop a milliliter chart for the T4, both T7 troughs, and the T8 trough. The chart will include both levels for regular and side grinding.

The first entry in this chart is 500ml water + 20 ml ml ACC. This measurement is for the T8, top full stop, and side grinding. Since the diamond wheels are non absorbent, these measurements should remain constant.

One related suggestion: I suggest lowering the trough and allowing the excess water to drip off.

Sorry for all the fuss; I hope it heads off problems from other users.

Ken
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 01:15:42 am by Ken S »

Online Ken S

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Re: diamond wheels, first attempt
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2018, 02:02:09 am »
With all the water, I almost forgot:

Based on only preliminary use, the new coarse diamond wheel reminds me of its smaller brother, the Tormek DWC-200, which I like very much. Even though it is officially 360 grit, I find both of them cut much better than the the 220 grit SG-250 or SB-250. This thought is preliminary. I don't know if the grains have fully stabilized, however, things look promising.

More soon.

Ken

Offline Grizz

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Re: diamond wheels, first attempt
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2018, 02:12:07 am »
very good report Ken, it definitely is a learning curve.

Online Ken S

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Re: diamond wheels, first attempt
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2018, 03:22:33 am »
Thanks, Grizz. I think the hard part of the learning curve with the diamond wheels is unlearning the years of using heavier grinding pressure preached by Tormek. Jeff Farris mentioned it in his chisel video and it is still very much a part of the handbook, even the brand new online version. Old habits die hard.

My observations at this point are only preliminary. I will keep everyone posted. I hope those of you who have ordered diamond wheels will post your thoughts and observations.

Ken

Offline Jan

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Re: diamond wheels, first attempt
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2018, 12:07:55 pm »
Ken, movement of water caused by rotation of the grindstone partially immerged in water is quite complex matter. When I read your first post about the water cascading I was wondering about increased water adherence to the diamond wheel caused by the addition of the Anti-Corrosion Concentrate.

The water trough overfilling explanation has removed my doubts.  :)

Jan

Online Ken S

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Re: diamond wheels, first attempt
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2018, 02:36:58 pm »
Jan,

In hindsight, this is becoming a good learning situation. Grinding with the side of the wheel on the Tormek is a new experience. I am normally cautious with filling my water trough. I add water gradually during the initial absorbtion period. My goal is always to have adequate water, but no extra. I use a turkey baster to empty the trough. I rarely have any spillage beyond a couple drops. In this new side grinding situation, to use an English idiom, "my brain was out to lunch".

No harm was done. After some quiet reflection, this triggered my response for controlled troubleshooting. After spending thirty five years troubleshooting telephone circuits, that is my thought process. My water trough was not cracked. I thought my table surface was level. After ckecking this with a good level (habitually I also test the level by flipping it end for end, making sure the bubble readings agree), I was confident that all was level.

Whenever I fill with an additive in the water, I use some of my old photo darkroom graduates. I confess that my note taking is not always as conscientious as it should be. I recall the first run having 700ml of water and ACC.

After the spillage, my gut feeling was that I might have overfilled the trough. I reread the instruction booklet which came with the grinding wheel and found no reference to recommended fluid volume. Then I posted my initial caveat post. I also emailed support. I believe that any mistake I am capable of making might also be made by others. I wanted to try and prevent repetition of the same error.

I do not think precise measurement of ACC and water is essential. It seems like watching a chef add olive oil or wine. I do think it is good practice to spend some time initially using graduates (measuring cups) borrowed from the kitchen. I use empty plastic food jars. If we carefully measure XXX ml of water, pour it into a plastic jar, and mark the level with our black marker; any future water poured to that line will be the same volume.

My next order of business will be to use a small graduate to measure the volume of different levels in the ACC bottle cap. (I save things like graduated cold medicine cups for this purpose. After measuring fluids other than water, I don't mind disposing of these; I always have several on hand. My latest larger graduate was a 500ml plastic graduate from my kidney stone stay in the hospital. It was used to measure my urine volume. Hospital practice is to dispose of them. My nurse packed up mine for me; it is now in my shop.

Homemade measuring practice is like using a kenjig or janjig. Precise measurement required only once. Most users will only need measurements for one water trough, and only two measurements, one for regular grinding and one for side grinding. Make a label for how many capfuls of ACC and stick it on the water bottle. Good to go!

I still need to work on brevity in post writing.......

Ken

ps I should mention the Tormek Rubber Workmat. While these are not inexpensive, they are very well designed and manufactured. They are a heavy duty, quality product. Unlike an expensive jig we think we might use someday, the rubber work mat does trooper service during every sharpening session. They make a great Christmas or birthday present which will last for the duration.

Offline cbwx34

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Re: diamond wheels, first attempt
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2018, 03:30:42 pm »
...
Based on only preliminary use, the new coarse diamond wheel reminds me of its smaller brother, the Tormek DWC-200, which I like very much. Even though it is officially 360 grit, I find both of them cut much better than the the 220 grit SG-250 or SB-250. This thought is preliminary. I don't know if the grains have fully stabilized, however, things look promising.

More soon.

Ken

Most diamond stones have a "break-in" period... Tormek acknowledges it in their literature...

Quote from:  Tormek
At first usage, the diamond surface will seem aggressive, so you should
expect to feel and hear that some diamond grits stand out. After a short
break-in period, the diamond crystals will stabilize to a uniform level to give
a finer surface. This process normally takes 2–5 sharpenings.



Ken, movement of water caused by rotation of the grindstone partially immerged in water is quite complex matter. When I read your first post about the water cascading I was wondering about increased water adherence to the diamond wheel caused by the addition of the Anti-Corrosion Concentrate.

The water trough overfilling explanation has removed my doubts.  :)

Jan

I'm glad this was solved, without having to see the math on that! ;)
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 03:35:18 pm by cbwx34 »

Offline RickKrung

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Re: diamond wheels, first attempt
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2018, 05:21:55 pm »
Ken, movement of water caused by rotation of the grindstone partially immerged in water is quite complex matter. When I read your first post about the water cascading I was wondering about increased water adherence to the diamond wheel caused by the addition of the Anti-Corrosion Concentrate.

The water trough overfilling explanation has removed my doubts.  :)

Jan

Interesting.  I would have thought the ACC would act as a surfactant, reducing adherence.  I have no idea why I thought that as it depends on what the ACC is composed of, of which I also have no idea. 

...snip...
My plan was to begin by flattening the back of a chisel. I gradually filled the water trough until the water level almost covered the diamond abrasive on the side of the wheel. Then disaster struck; water came cascading out of the trough.
...snip...

Ken

Later reply, with solution
...snip...
With the first attempt, I tried filling until the water level almost covered all of the side abrasive.

Ken

So, I am curious about your focus on filling so far as to cover all the side abrasive surface.  I am wondering how necessary that is.

My assumption (there it is again) is that as the wheel rotates water would spread downward, due to gravity and the lack of absorption, to cover some of the uncovered grit area.  Also, I would think the working of a tool on the side would "spread" the solution downward, to some degree (we've all see water build-up on edges on the outer surface and how it flows off to the sides).

I have no experience with diamond wheels (yet), so this is just curiosity. 

Rick
Quality is like buying oats.  If you want nice clean, fresh oats, you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse, that comes at a lower price.

Online Ken S

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Re: diamond wheels, first attempt
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2018, 06:22:42 pm »
Rick,

I have been rethinking my break in strategy with the diamond wheels. My first thought was to use my sharpening chisels to break in the entire wheel of all three wheels. In general, I still think that is a good plan. The bevel of the chisels provide a good grinding surface for the front of the grinding wheels; the chisel backs are ideal for breaking in the side. Among the side benefits is getting a good feel for how the wheels cut. For the review, I will follow this plan.

For my personal use, I don't know if that is the most logical plan. I am sure I will find more uses for flat grinding in the future, however, for the present I live in the round ground world. For jobs like flattening chisel backs, if the coarse wheel was too coarse because the wheel was not broken in, I would just start with the fine wheel. With much side use, the break in issue would take care of itself.

One overlooked thing with the diamond wheels is that in addition to maintaining a constant wheel diameter, they also cut continuously. In a five minute cutting test, they cut as well after several minutes as they do at the start. No wheel dressing is necessary or possible. Read that carefully: DO NOT TRY TO GRADE, DRESS, OR TRUE DIAMOND WHEELS!

I look forward to reading your machinist's thoughts on both the diamond wheels and the Multi Base.

Ken