Author Topic: Hewn & Hone Sloyd Jig  (Read 2584 times)

Offline wanderingwhittler

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Hewn & Hone Sloyd Jig
« on: September 29, 2018, 09:28:36 pm »
Some forum members may find this of interest. Yesterday a UK company called Hewn & Hone released a new Sloyd Jig for sharpening sloyd knives like the Mora 106. They've also released an instructional video showing its setup and use.

My understanding is that achieving the same grind with standard Tormek jigs requires the use of both the SVM-45 Knife Jig and the SVM-00 Small Knife Holder. Spoon Carving with Tom has an Instagram IGTV video detailing the procedures he uses to ensure a consistent, repeatable grind using those jigs. Assuming both methods produce comparable results, I can certainly see the appeal of the simpler, purpose-built Sloyd Jig.

For other knives that may happen to fit in it, I wonder whether the Sloyd Jig will provide better centering than what I've read here about the SVM-45?

At any rate, I'm curious about other members' thoughts on this new jig.
Greg
Joy is a sharp knife and a block of wood.

Offline Ken S

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Re: Hewn & Hone Sloyd Jig
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2018, 12:11:21 am »
Thanks for posting this, Greg.I study every sharpening and Tormek related video I can find. I almost always find a good idea, or at least the glimmer of a good idea in a video. These two fit that pattern.

I liked the idea of the two locking screws to secure the blade to the jig to accommodate tapered blades. I also thought that providing shortened Allen wrenches to limit the torque was quite clever. The idea of a jig specially designed for Mora scandi grind carving knives is appealing, however, if one watches the Tormek Friends video on the Dal Horse factory, those two dedicated carving knife sharpeners probably routinely sharpen more Mora carving knives than anyone on the planet. And they do it with a Tormek, the regular knife jig, and the small blade tool.

The jig shown on the video seemed fragile compared to the Tormek jig. I sharpen everything from my paring knives to my chef's knives and Chinese cleaver with the regular Tormek knife jig.

I also questioned the use of a coarse CBN wheel for rough knife grinding followed with non Tormek finishing. As I said, the double locking screw arrangement with a shortened Allen wrench impressed me. The rest of the video did not. The guy impressed me enough to subscribe to his you tube channel.

The second instagram video was rescued by the screw modification to the Tormek knife jig at the very end. I must add the way he aligned the knife and the Tormek small blade holder to the good glimmer list.

Frankly, the instagram video brought the Shakesperean title, "Much Ado About Nothing" to mind. I admit the guy annoyed me early on with his whining about how expensive the Tormek is. Expensive, compared with what? An apples to apples dry grinder would be a Baldor, which easily costs as much as a Tormek. Comparing similar quality, Tormek's prices are not out of line. Look at the Tormek knife sharpener, Terry. He bought a used SuperGrind many years ago and has been using it daily with a busy knife sharpening service ever since. How many clones of that vintage are still in regular service? Look st the innovations Tormek has introduced over the years. How many clones have made even one substantial improvement or innovation?

He did not help his case by saying how difficult and time consuming using the Tormek is, at least for him. Better to purchase the sharpening products he happens to sell. To be fair, I did like his idea of aligning the knife handle in the small blade tool. I could easily do without the rest of the video.

Again, Greg, thanks for posting this. I will probably incorporate the handle setting in the small blade tool into my technique.

Ken

Offline wanderingwhittler

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Re: Hewn & Hone Sloyd Jig
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2018, 02:22:15 am »
Hi Ken,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and observations. I'm glad that you found useful tidbits in each video.

I think I can provide a bit more context. Sloyd knives like the ones they are both talking about are typically sharpened on flat stones to a flat grind with no secondary bevel. That's the reference for both the type of grind and the expense of the sharpening system.

I've seen a number of spoon carvers and at least a couple of sloyd knife makers express a preference for "flat over hollow" grinds for sloyd knives. The idea is that after you have a hollow grind from a grinding wheel you follow up with a flat stone to get a small flat grind at the apex of the edge an at the shoulder. Proponents of this grind say that it performs identically to a flat grind as far as carving is concerned, but is much faster than a flat grind to resharpen on stones because there is much less metal to be removed. It is also supposed to be much less prone to convexing the edge. Only after the hollow has been ground out by the flat stones would they return to the Tormek to re-establish the bevel. For a working spoon carver, that added speed and accuracy for day-to-day sharpening could be a big draw.

When Tom is talking about the expense of the Tormek, he's comparing it to the whole range of sharpening systems that someone might use for a sloyd knife ranging from sandpaper to stones and all the way up to Tormek rather than to other whetstone grinding systems. When a beginning spoon carver has just a $25 Mora 106 to maintain, the price of a Tormek would be quite hard to justify indeed. I think part of what he is trying to convey is "don't worry if you can't afford or justify the price of a Tormek, you can get by just fine with a flat grind. But, for those who do have a Tormek, here's what I do...".

You raise a great point about the folks at the professional sharpeners at the Dal Horse factory. That's certainly proof that the two jigs can work in concert to a high level of performance.

Your point about fragility of the Hewn & Hone jig compared to the SVM-45 is well taken. There were certainly a few "use caution" points in the video.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts. It's instructive to hear the opinions of someone who has a lot of experience with the Tormek. Especially for someone like me whose only experience with a Tormek so far is carrying its box to the garage. I'm off now to begin building my own experience...  :)

Greg
Greg
Joy is a sharp knife and a block of wood.

Offline Ken S

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Re: Hewn & Hone Sloyd Jig
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2018, 04:04:18 pm »
Hi, Greg.

In hindsight, (always my sharpest vision), I think I was too critical of Tom's video. I tend to absorb knowledge like an Original Tormek wheel absorbs water, not all at once. I have watched Tom's video a second time. While I still have differing thoughts, my thinking has mellowed.

The Tormek SG-250 grinding wheel is a logical pairing with the hollow scandi grind. The 250mm diameter produces a very shallow hollow grind. The SG is optimized for high carbon steel, like many of the Mora knives. I'm not sure that the knife jig is the best way to sharpen a full scandi grind. It may well be; I'm just not convinced yet. It would be a good forum topic to discuss. If you happen to know Tom, I would welcome him into the conversation.

I can understand why the cost of a Tormek might seem daunting for just an occasional refreshing of a scandi grind. I have had a similar thought regarding the cost of a good dry grinder and BGM-100 set up for turners. As reshaping a turning tool is a one time operation and regrinding a full scandi grind is only an occasional project, in a club or group environment, why not have one or two members designated to do the work? A modest fee would help to defray the cost of the set up. And, assuming that person would do this work more often than a number of home workers, the job should be more skilled.

Food for thought.

Ken

Offline cbwx34

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Re: Hewn & Hone Sloyd Jig
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2018, 03:43:09 pm »
Some forum members may find this of interest. Yesterday a UK company called Hewn & Hone released a new Sloyd Jig for sharpening sloyd knives like the Mora 106. They've also released an instructional video showing its setup and use.

My understanding is that achieving the same grind with standard Tormek jigs requires the use of both the SVM-45 Knife Jig and the SVM-00 Small Knife Holder. Spoon Carving with Tom has an Instagram IGTV video detailing the procedures he uses to ensure a consistent, repeatable grind using those jigs. Assuming both methods produce comparable results, I can certainly see the appeal of the simpler, purpose-built Sloyd Jig.

For other knives that may happen to fit in it, I wonder whether the Sloyd Jig will provide better centering than what I've read here about the SVM-45?

At any rate, I'm curious about other members' thoughts on this new jig.

I saw the video when it came out... it looks similar to the clamps being used on other sharpeners... so should work (although I would replace the large collar).  I think it would work better than the SVM-45 as far as centering goes.

I think the price is a bit much though...  :( 

Offline wanderingwhittler

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Re: Hewn & Hone Sloyd Jig
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2018, 06:14:50 am »
Today I tried sharpening a Mora 120 using the SVM-45 and SVM-00. The 120 is shorter than the 106 shown in both videos I referenced in the first post, but the sharpening technique should be the same.

I followed the tips shown in the Spoon Carving with Tom video, except for adding a set screw. Sure enough, the bevels were not centered and I had to use different SVM-45 adjustment knob settings for each side. It took me quite a while to get everything dialed in correctly and repeatably. Once I'd accomplished that, the actual grinding went smoothly and I got satisfactory results.

Given the extra time it took to get both bevels dialed in individually and the possibility for errors in either turning the SVM-45 adjustment knob the wrong way or not quite exactly repeating the previous setting each time, I can see the appeal of the purpose-built Hewn & Hone jig. It's more expensive, but might be worth it to some in terms of both time saved and having less opportunity for error.

By the way, I started playing around with a few shimming ideas to see if I could get the SVM-45 + SVM-00 setup to have the bevels properly centered and avoid the need to change the SVM-45 adjustment knob setting each time the knife is flipped. My first attempts didn't work repeatably, but I have a few other ideas I want to try when I have time. In the mean time, if anyone has experimented with shimming and the SVM-00 jig I'd be interested to hear about their strategies and experiences.
Greg
Joy is a sharp knife and a block of wood.

Offline RickKrung

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Re: Hewn & Hone Sloyd Jig
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2018, 08:08:56 am »
...snip... In the mean time, if anyone has experimented with shimming and the SVM-00 jig I'd be interested to hear about their strategies and experiences.

What little use I've made of the -00 jig, there has been so much variability of aligning the handle so the blade is aligned, I question the practicality of shimming the bar that is gripped by the -45 jig.  But, what the heck, maybe you can devise a way of doing it.  Good luck and let us know (as if I thought you wouldn't  :D ).

Rick
Quality is like buying oats.  If you want nice clean, fresh oats, you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse, that comes at a lower price.

Offline wanderingwhittler

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Re: Hewn & Hone Sloyd Jig
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2018, 09:41:14 pm »
...snip... In the mean time, if anyone has experimented with shimming and the SVM-00 jig I'd be interested to hear about their strategies and experiences.

What little use I've made of the -00 jig, there has been so much variability of aligning the handle so the blade is aligned, I question the practicality of shimming the bar that is gripped by the -45 jig.  But, what the heck, maybe you can devise a way of doing it.  Good luck and let us know (as if I thought you wouldn't  :D ).

Rick

I'm coming to the same conclusion, Rick. I tried it a bit more, as well as trying to shim within the -00 grip to encourage a wee bit of rotation, but neither worked. I see variation even from just putting the -00 in the -45, removing it, and trying to put it back in exactly as before. Heck, one time, through dumb luck, I even got it perfectly centered without any shims at all.  ???

I watched the Tormek Dala Horse Factory visit again and noticed a few things:

  • The sharpener just eyeballed the positioning of the knife in the SVM-00
  • He was quite fast at getting the adjuster knob dialed in, no doubt from lots and lots of practice
  • The video only shows the final moments of sharpening the other side; it's quite possible he did further adjustments after flipping the knife

Given all that, and the inherent variability in the combined jigs, I think a much more productive use of my time is getting adept at quickly finding the set points on the SVM-45 adjuster knob for the SVM-45/SVM-00/Knife configuration of the moment rather than to strive for perfect initial positioning.
Greg
Joy is a sharp knife and a block of wood.

Offline GKC

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Re: Hewn & Hone Sloyd Jig
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2018, 11:34:35 pm »
I have ordered the Hewn & Hone sloyd knife jig that Greg referenced in the first part of the starting post of this thread.  Here is why.

First, I have a bunch of sloyds and other knives with Scandi grinds and am generally interested in figuring out whether the Tormek is the way to sharpen them.  It certainly seems to work for the Dala horse carvers, but I won't have as practised a hand as their sharpening guy (40-60 knives a day!!) no matter how long I live, so a firm and theoretically perfectly flippable jig like the Hewn & Hone one might help me out better than the Tormek small knife jig.

Second, this jig is designed by Nic Westermann (the guy in the video) who, for my money (and he has a lot of it already) is one of the best blade blacksmiths and sharpeners out there.  The only thing that keeps him from being back-ordered into the next century on his hand-forged blades is that he controls his order list so that he doesn't feel pressured to compromise on quality.  He is one of a dying breed.  Which is to say, if he has designed and had this jig built, it will be good.

My bias is evident from the foregoing: if Westermann banged away at a lump of metal and told me it was a superior cell phone, I would buy it.  And the jig is very expensive, so maybe not worth it for many.  When I get it, I will put it into service and report.

Gord

Offline Ken S

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Re: Hewn & Hone Sloyd Jig
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2018, 11:46:28 pm »
Good show, Gord!

The only way to know if a jig or anything else works is to purchase one and try it!

Please post your thoughts after using it. We can always use another good jig.

Ken

Offline wanderingwhittler

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Re: Hewn & Hone Sloyd Jig
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2018, 03:42:02 am »
Gord, that's great! I'm looking forward to your report once you've had a chance to use it.

I didn't mention it earlier, but I also ended up ordering one, for essentially the same reasons you stated. Although, I probably have fewer sloyd and scandi grind knives to deal with than you and I only know of Nic Westermann's work by reputation.

I'm very happy to hear your ringing endorsement of his work. Someday I hope to have a blade or two of his in my collection.
Greg
Joy is a sharp knife and a block of wood.