Author Topic: Diamond honing compound  (Read 2444 times)

Offline Sharpco

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Diamond honing compound
« on: January 30, 2019, 09:10:24 am »
Tormek made wheels with aluminum oxide, silicon carbide, Japanese waterstone and diamonds.

But what about the compound? Aluminum oxide only. I hope Tormek will make a diamond compound.

Nowadays many knives made of very hard steel. So I think we need diamond compound.

Offline Ken S

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Re: Diamond honing compound
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2019, 11:16:47 am »
Sharpco,

How many knives is "many knives"? (I ask this because my knife sharpening experience involves only my personal workaday kitchen and pocket knives.) In your professional sharpening business, out of a hundred knives sharpened, typically, how many will be made of very hard steel?

With knives of very hard steel, does the Tormek honing compound not work at all, or does it just work more slowly?

The Tormek PA-70 honing compound is a general purpose product. It is used with the entire range of tools sharpened on the Tormek. It is also popular with sharpeners using other sharpening methods. It is designed to break down to smaller, finer particles with use, thus allowing a single compound to serve as many grits. It is economical; one ten dollar US tube will hone many tools.

The Tormek is a multi use sharpening system. Traditionally, only two jigs were knife specific, the regular and long knife jigs. I believe that the majority of the US Tormek is oriented toward woodturning. In Europe, the market is primarily knife sharpeners. You would know the South Korean market much better than I.

I do not doubt the usefulness of diamond honing oils. I do doubt that they would generate enough sales revenue to be a progitable addition to the Tormek product line.

Ken

ps As a side note, I have recently learned that Ken Schwartz, the designer of many of the diamond honing oils, is now making diamond embedded wax type products, dimilar to those used by paper wheels. The idea is nteresting, although I don't know if the 100 RPM speed of the Tormek leather honing wheel would generate enough heat to melt the wax.

Offline Sharpco

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Re: Diamond honing compound
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2019, 11:56:31 am »
Ken,

I like PA-70 a lot and agree with you that advantages of it. But it doesn't make super sharp(under 50 BESS) & aggressive edge.

And check the link below.
http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/Sharpening_High_Vanadium_Knives.pdf

So I ordered Jende Nanocloth strop & Poly diamond emulsion. This emulsion is great product but I think it's not good to apply it to leather wheel.

I contacted Ken schwartz but he didn't answer.

Offline cbwx34

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Re: Diamond honing compound
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2019, 03:01:55 pm »
Tormek made wheels with aluminum oxide, silicon carbide, Japanese waterstone and diamonds.

But what about the compound? Aluminum oxide only. I hope Tormek will make a diamond compound.

Nowadays many knives made of very hard steel. So I think we need diamond compound.

Why wait for Tormek?

Type "diamond powder" into a search engine... you can fine suppliers of diamond powder that you could add to the current compound, (or make your own).

You might also contact Tom at Jende Industries... tell him what you're doing, and see what he has to say on the subject.  (I'm also not sure why you couldn't add the diamond emulsion to the leather wheel... does he not make leather strops you can add it to?)

If (for some reason) you didn't want to mix the Tormek compound with a diamond based compound, you'll need a 2nd wheel (but if Tormek made it, you'd need a 2nd wheel anyway...).

This is one area where I don't think you need to wait for Tormek... there are several options already available.

Edit:  And the overlooked question... what diamond product did wootz use in his testing? ???

...
With knives of very hard steel, does the Tormek honing compound not work at all, or does it just work more slowly?
...

ps ...although I don't know if the 100 RPM speed of the Tormek leather honing wheel would generate enough heat to melt the wax.

When you get into the "polishing"  or refining stage... it does reach the point where it may not work at all.

And, I wouldn't use a wax based compound on the leather wheel.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 03:34:14 pm by cbwx34 »
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Offline RichColvin

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Re: Diamond honing compound
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2019, 06:29:05 pm »
CB, you triggered a thought. 

There is an option of adding a profiled leather wheel (picture below) which attaches to the side of the leather honing wheel.  I am thinking of making a honing wheel like the profiled wheel, but maybe made from something like ¾ inch thick medium-density fibreboard (MDF). 

MDF is often used for stropping with carving tools, and it could be used a medium for stropping using a diamond paste (or other honing compound).  Possibly, there would need to be multiple MDF wheels, one for each compound.

My initial thought is that the advantage to this approach would be :
  • this would allow for slow-speed stropping / honing, and
  • this would make great use of limited space (in most shops).

I'm interested in thoughts on this.

Kind regards,
Rich
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Offline cbwx34

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Re: Diamond honing compound
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2019, 06:48:38 pm »
CB, you triggered a thought. 

There is an option of adding a profiled leather wheel (picture below) which attaches to the side of the leather honing wheel.  I am thinking of making a honing wheel like the profiled wheel, but maybe made from something like ¾ inch thick medium-density fibreboard (MDF). 

MDF is often used for stropping with carving tools, and it could be used a medium for stropping using a diamond paste (or other honing compound).  Possibly, there would need to be multiple MDF wheels, one for each compound.

My initial thought is that the advantage to this approach would be :
  • this would allow for slow-speed stropping / honing, and
  • this would make great use of limited space (in most shops).

I'm interested in thoughts on this.

Kind regards,
Rich

I did something similar with a paper wheel...



it works... and kwakster did this (mounted an MDF wheel on top of the leather wheel)...


https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=3509

so, I'd say go for it.  :)
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Offline Sharpco

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Re: Diamond honing compound
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2019, 02:11:02 am »
You might also contact Tom at Jende Industries... tell him what you're doing, and see what he has to say on the subject.  (I'm also not sure why you couldn't add the diamond emulsion to the leather wheel... does he not make leather strops you can add it to?)

If (for some reason) you didn't want to mix the Tormek compound with a diamond based compound, you'll need a 2nd wheel (but if Tormek made it, you'd need a 2nd wheel anyway...).

This is one area where I don't think you need to wait for Tormek... there are several options already available.

You're right. There are many options. But the problem is that I can't trust the quality of them, and don't know if it works well on Tormek leather wheel. Of course I can test it myself, but it costs a lot because the leather wheel is not cheap.

And I think PA-70 is best aluminum oxide honing compound on the market. So I believe the diamond honing compound made by Tormek will be highest quality product. That's why I looking forward to it.

Anyway, your idea is good. I'll contact with Jende industry and ask about Tormek leather wheel. I thought the water base emulsion is not good at Tormek leather wheel. But it may not.

Offline Ken S

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Re: Diamond honing compound
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2019, 03:55:06 am »
Sharpco,

I understand your reasons for wanting Tormek to introduce diamond compounds. I feel the same trust for Tormek quality. I began using Norton 3X and CBN wheels because Tormek did not offer anything comparable at the time. I do not mean to imply that other companys' products are inferior, only that I am quite comfortable with Tormek. Very closely related to honing compound is my history with antioxidation additives. When I started working with CBN wheels, I also began working with Honerite Gold. I have never had a problem using it with CBN. It is diluted 1:25 with water, just like the Tormek Anti Corrosion Compound. Although I use ACC with diamond wheels, I would continue to use Honerite Gold with CBN. I don't really care if one or the other is slightly more or less expensive. I have faith in both products.

I believe diamond honing compounds may work very well for a small number of Tormek users. I doubt most users would want to pay the extra expense for the diamond compounds, just like I do not believe most Tormek users will invest the extra $1000 US for a set of diamond wheels. Part of that decision will be based on thrift and budgetary considerations. part of it will be based on perceived need.

Unfortunately, the use of diamonds with Tormek is new enough that we do not have full information. We really have extensive information only on the SG wheel and the PA-70 honing compound. Ken Schwartz seems to be the diamond honing compound guru, and he works with belt grinders and leather strops. With the exceptions of people like Wootz, we really do not have pioneers well versed in both Tormek and diamond/CBN technology. We must often do our own pioneering work.

In the spirit of sharing some of my experimental work, I have done some preliminary work with an eight inch hard felt wheel. Initial results seem promising. When I return to the project, I may purchase a rock hard felt wheel, perhaps in the ten inch diameter size. With the water trough removed, a ten inch felt wheel fits well in all Tormeks, including the T4 and T2. The bevel shape would be identical with the standard 250mm wheels. I do not know if this will. Prove, to be useful or not. We learn by trial and error.

Ken

Offline Sharpco

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Re: Diamond honing compound
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2019, 04:45:13 am »
In the spirit of sharing some of my experimental work, I have done some preliminary work with an eight inch hard felt wheel. Initial results seem promising. When I return to the project, I may purchase a rock hard felt wheel, perhaps in the ten inch diameter size. With the water trough removed, a ten inch felt wheel fits well in all Tormeks, including the T4 and T2. The bevel shape would be identical with the standard 250mm wheels. I do not know if this will. Prove, to be useful or not. We learn by trial and error.

I agree. We learn by trial and error.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 04:52:46 am by SHARPCO »

Offline cbwx34

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Re: Diamond honing compound
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2019, 04:56:11 pm »
...
Anyway, your idea is good. I'll contact with Jende industry and ask about Tormek leather wheel. I thought the water base emulsion is not good at Tormek leather wheel. But it may not.

Let me know what he says.  :)
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Offline Sharpco

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Re: Diamond honing compound
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2019, 09:07:39 am »
Let me know what he says.  :)

cbwx34.

Jende said we can apply Diamond emulsion to Tormek honing wheel :)

Offline cbwx34

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Re: Diamond honing compound
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2019, 01:26:24 pm »
Let me know what he says.  :)

cbwx34.

Jende said we can apply Diamond emulsion to Tormek honing wheel :)

Thank you!
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