Author Topic: Tormek SG & leather wheel - razor sharp  (Read 15918 times)

Offline RickKrung

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Re: Tormek SG & leather wheel - razor sharp
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2019, 09:40:43 pm »
I agree with Ken's recommendation for going with an applet and FVB and with his general statement of "All of the above".  I don't use the Kenjig directly, but I use a standard projection distance of 139mm.  I made my own FVB and use CB's GoCalc applet when setting the USB height with the FVB.  I use the FVB on the front of my T8 nearly 100% of the time, except for drill bits.  I need 3 or 4 more FVBs for my low speed grinder and buffers once I get paper wheels set up.

Last summer I did a fair bit of sharpening at a couple farmers markets.  In that, I became proficient using the SB and SG stones and the leather honing wheel and could produce edges as sharp as I'd been able to using the SJ wheel and stropping.  I have all three diamond wheels but found I didn't care for using them at the market sharpenings.  For a long time, I took BESS measurements on all the knives I sharpened.  After a while, I established that I got BESS readings below 200 nearly all the times, consistently closer to 150 and at best closer to 100.  I do not take many BESS readings when doing what I now regard as routine knife sharpening anymore.  For your family knife sharpening, you should not need to get any sharper than what the SG stone and leather honing wheel can provide. 

Some like the Tormek DC wheel for coarse grinding.  I find that even it is still too slow.  I use an 80 grit Norton 3X 8" grinding wheel set up on my T8 for establishing or re-establishing bevels when knives are extremely dull.  I hope to supplant it with a belt sander. 

I want additional FVBs to set up with my low speed grinder and paper wheels, using the Tormek BGM-100 as the base mount.  I've never used one of KnifeGrinder's paper wheel supports, so I cannot comment directly there.  However, I think the versatility of an FVB and BGM setup is a greater because it can adjust in two planes, whereas I believe the paper wheel support is based on a fixed horizontal position and only adjusts vertically.  I have BGMs set up on both sides of my low speed grinder and have two more in the boxes for when I get around to setting up the paper wheels.  Currently, I have only my initial FVB and it is a pain to have to break down setups of it to move to the other side of the grinder or to/from the T8/grinder, which is why I need more FVBs. 

My 2¢

Rick
Quality is like buying oats.  If you want nice clean, fresh oats, you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse, that comes at a lower price.

Offline Ken S

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Re: Tormek SG & leather wheel - razor sharp
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2019, 12:00:44 am »
Excellent post, Rick.

In general, I agree with your thoughts. With your use of the kenjig, I would separate the kenjig into the concept and the jig itself. You are using the concept, which ,in my opinion, is the greater part. By standardizing your Projection, you are on target. The actual jig itself is not that important. In fact, I use several variations of the jig.

I agree that the standard SG wheel and leather honing wheel are more than adequate for general sharpening. Like you, I feel that individual BESS readings are overkill for general sharpening, once you gave a good feel for what then are for your work and purpose. They are great for bragging rights, and sharp knife competitions. I think BESS readings are essential for high end sharpening

I think a practical use of diamond technology might be using the set of three DMT credit card diamond files ($25-$30) glued onto metal pieces and placed in the square edge jig. The 360, 600, and 1000 grit choices may help custom grade your wheel. I say "may" only because I have not had a chance to fully test these. Initial tests look promising. I believe they may be an improvement on the stone grader.

I like the Norton 3X wheels. They can be used wet with the Tormek and, as Rick has noted, trued with the TT-50. I found the 46 grit wheel removed in four minutes what was removed in five minutes with the 80 grit. Another in process experiment is using an 80 grit seeded gel wheel (from Packard Woodworking). According to Alan Lacer, these seeded gel wheels are a much better wheel than the 3X. They cost teice as much, $100 instead of $50. According to Lacer, they also cut faster than an 80 grit CBN wheel. (I have not verified this, although I have both wheels.)

We are in the middle exciting changes with knife sharpening. The game is afoot.

Ken
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 09:06:30 pm by Ken S »

Offline wootz

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Re: Tormek SG & leather wheel - razor sharp
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2019, 01:45:16 am »
We measure sharpness on the BESS sharpness tester only for high-end knives for appreciating customers.
However, there is a handful of perfectionist customers that send their kitchen knives interstate for us to sharpen "by science", and for them we take BESS sharpeness score for each knife, no matter what brand.

Other than that, we use the BESS sharpness tester in developing sharpening protocols for steels new to us, and for improving our current protocols.

Regular knives final sharpness  we test by cutting the Tally-Ho or Rizzla Green cigarette rolling paper longitudinally - a clean cut indicates 0.2 micron edge apex (Gillette razor has 0.1 micron apex) - it is quicker and lots cheaper than a BESS sharpness test.
Details are in our Sharpness Chart http://knifegrinders.com.au/Manuals/Sharpness_Chart.pdf



« Last Edit: April 03, 2019, 01:49:09 am by wootz »

Offline Ken S

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Re: Tormek SG & leather wheel - razor sharp
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2019, 03:34:37 am »
Wootz,
A very practical balance of quality sharpening and cost effective business practice. I'm sure that even your everyday sharpening is a cut above.

Ken

Offline Ledpipes

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Re: Tormek SG & leather wheel - razor sharp
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2019, 03:39:28 pm »
Excellent! Guded leather wheel honing it is then.

Yes, by 'next level' I only mean that I want to get things sharper. Doing this as a hobby that has therapeutic affects but also.... addictive

Thanks for your helpful advice!

Offline john.jcb

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Re: Tormek SG & leather wheel - razor sharp
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2019, 08:32:43 pm »
I just ordered the FVB and program; I am looking forward to using it on a couple of cleavers and the leather wheel.

The inclusion of the book was a pleasant surprise. Thank you Wootz.
Sharpen the knife blade
Hone edge until perfection
Cut with joy and ease

Offline Dastagg

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Re: Tormek SG & leather wheel - razor sharp
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2019, 11:07:09 pm »
I too recently ordered the FVB and was surprised to find a hard copy of the book included. I had just purchased a copy also on Amazon for the Kindle version and got the hard copy as a surprise.
Thank You and am working to improve my sharpening skills. I purchased the BESS scale also to help closer monitor how I am performing in improvement.

Offline Hogdog6

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Re: Tormek SG & leather wheel - razor sharp
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2019, 06:45:06 am »
Just finished my Kindle edition of the book. A very informative and enjoyable read...  Thanks Wootz

Offline Luke

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Re: Tormek SG & leather wheel - razor sharp
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2019, 08:44:11 pm »
First post. Hello everyone  :)
I'd like to say what a brilliant forum this is , I've been lurking for a few weeks now , reading and learning and I must say you really do come across as a very knowledgable and decent bunch . I love the sharpening handbook and have referenced it several times and am currently experimenting with a platform jig
I'm new to sharpening , had my Tormek for a month or so , picked up some pretty  decent machines second hand (of the non Tormek variety ) and am slowly getting my head around things .
I have done a short training course but for me there is nothing like hands on practice at my own pace . The guy that trained me didn't use the leather honing wheel but cloth mops on a 6 inch grinder so I've experimented with that and had what I believed were decent results for a novice . Kitchen knives that wouldn't slice newspaper made to do so quite easily . I was wondering Vadim is there any idea of whereabouts on the  sharpness scale a knife that can slice newspaper would be  ?
Anyway I've gone ahead and ordered the FVB and the Pivot jig from Vadim and look forward to improving my skills when they make there way over from down under  :)

Offline Ken S

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Re: Tormek SG & leather wheel - razor sharp
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2019, 09:29:56 pm »
Welcome to the forum, Luke.

You mention that the guy who trained you did not use the leather honing wheel. I do not wish to criticize him or his choice not to use the leather honing wheel. However, I believe it is important to master something before writing it off. If a top sharpener like Wootz would tell me that he prefers another method, I would pay serious attention. I know that he has developed his sharpening skills to fully understand the potential and limitations of the leather honing wheel or any other component.

I am not an only Tormek sharpener, either for equipment or technique. In my search for a Tormek compatable coarse wheel, I was the first on the forum to work with the Norton 3X 46 and 80 grit wheels. I was an early CBN user with the Tormek, especially with wet use. For many years I have developed and used the kenjig (based on Dutchman's tables) instead of using the Anglemaster or black marker. I have always deviated from Tormek exclusively because I felt better results were possible by including non Tormek products or methods. I based these thoughts on first understanding the Tormek way.

I look forward to seeing many more advances from the forum. I believe the Tormek will continue to be the heart of these advances, although the Tormek of the future will not be identical to Torgny Jansson's original machine.

Keep posting, Luke!

Ken

Offline Luke

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Re: Tormek SG & leather wheel - razor sharp
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2019, 10:56:54 pm »
Cheers Ken,
Wootz ,undoubtedly is someone to listen to , a few email exchanges with him have proven to be enlightening . Taking time to explain a few simple things so myself as a novice can understand - I'm sold  :)

Offline wootz

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Re: Tormek SG & leather wheel - razor sharp
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2019, 11:26:29 pm »
...
I was wondering Vadim is there any idea of whereabouts on the  sharpness scale a knife that can slice newspaper would be  ?
...

Hi Luke, newsprint papers differ widely, but for the common cheaper one clean slicing indicates a working edge, sharp but not "very sharp", details are in our Sharpness Chart http://knifegrinders.com.au/Manuals/Sharpness_Chart.pdf

Speaking of knife sharpening, there are 2 major milestones in mastering Tormek: first you learn how to put a shaving edge on your knives, and then how to put a lasting shaving edge by removing the wire edge from the apex. Where time per knife is not a restriction, everything can be done by means of Tormek.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2019, 11:38:37 pm by wootz »

Offline Ken S

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Re: Tormek SG & leather wheel - razor sharp
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2019, 11:26:19 am »

Speaking of knife sharpening, there are 2 major milestones in mastering Tormek: first you learn how to put a shaving edge on your knives, and then how to put a lasting shaving edge by removing the wire edge from the apex. Where time per knife is not a restriction, everything can be done by means of Tormek.
[/quote]

There is much wisdom in this quote from Wootz. The second part reminds me of a question I asked Steve Bottorff several years ago. Steve had retired from teaching at the time, but had very graciously invited me to spend a day with him at his home. He shared the essence of his sharpening class with me. It was both a very pleasant day and a rare learning opportunity. Steve´s method of using the Tormek to set the bevel and finishing with either paper wheels or an F Dick sharpening machine is well known. Sharpening a hundred knives on a Saturday morning requires speed. I asked Steve if it would be possible to do the entire procedure with the Tormek if speed was not so paramount. He told me that the Tormek was quite capable of doing the entire procedure if speed was not a priority. For me, as a low volume sharpener, not having the expense for the extra equipment easily outweighed the time saving.

When two outstanding sharpeners on opposite parts of the planet reach the same conclusion, I am convinced.

Ken

Offline van

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Re: Tormek SG & leather wheel - razor sharp
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2019, 01:55:38 pm »
Any Idea how hard/good that blade is???

The blade is a Chinese make multi-layer VG10.
The SG wheel graded with a diamond plate to #1000; leather wheel honing angle controlled with the FVB.
This way of honing ensures complete deburring and wire edge removal without rounding the edge - this knife will stay very sharp for long.

My own best result with this setup is 75 BESS, and I am delighted to see people following our methods do better.
:oI'll be a stubborn guy, but I have to understand !!!
How do you recognize that this blade is VG10 if it is not written on the blade?
Perhaps only the great experience can lead to this determination
« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 01:59:00 pm by van »
Kindly yours

Offline john.jcb

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Re: Tormek SG & leather wheel - razor sharp
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2019, 03:56:41 pm »
You have to do some research. Many knife making companies advertise the steel they use for their blades. For this one you can look on their site and for many of their knives it is in the specifications. No one can tell the chemical composition of a steel by looking at it. If you have a good memory or a notebook you can keep track of the knives you sharpen. Here are a couple of lists of the steels used for blades. The knife manufacturers are normally good about advertising what steel they use. For some of the really cheap knives it is sometimes a little harder to find the information; if a knife is cheap it is safe to assume it is not made with anything exotic.

https://www.knivesandtools.com/en/ct/steel-types-for-kitchen-knives.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_blade_materials

Sharpen the knife blade
Hone edge until perfection
Cut with joy and ease