Author Topic: Taking the Plunge Into Paper Wheels  (Read 4002 times)

Offline RickKrung

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Taking the Plunge Into Paper Wheels
« on: October 11, 2019, 07:48:24 am »
I finally set up some of the paper wheels I've had for a year, for honing edges.  They are 10" wheels from Razor Sharp, purchased through Steve Bottorff/Sharpening Made Easy.  The wheels are about 1 1/4" wide.  They came with some plastic bushings, 3/4" to 5/8" but I prefer using stainless steel, so I made some from some tubing I had on hand.  The OD was fine, but the tubing is welded so the ID had irregularities, so I bored them out to a close but slip fit on the grinder shaft.  I used the 8" half-speed Rikon grinder I bought more than a year ago that I had set up with BGMs but found I could not control the heat along the apexes, so I quit using it for sharpening.  And now that I have the Viel 1x42 belt sander, I do not need the Rikon for roughing bevels. 


At first I thought I could use the nice flanges from the Rikon, but with the additional width of the paper wheels, there was not enough thread left for the nuts to be secure, so I machined some custom ones from aluminum, similar to the ones I made for mounting the Norton 3X grindstone on my T8. 


It was a lot more involved than I anticipated setting up the BGMs, per Wootz's instructions, attempting to have them come out with the vertical and horizontal distances he recommends.  I tried really hard to make both sides the same.  It was futile.  I think I'd like to try making better mounts later, but I just want to get on with using it all now.  They'll probably stay that way once I start using them.


I've relied heavily on information from Wootz, including diamond pastes.  I have set up the first two paper wheels, one with 5 micron and the other with a 50:50 mix of 0.5 and 0.25 micron.  The procedure for applying the paste came from Kwakster, via Wootz, which is to use an oil with tackifiers.  I could not find any tackifier product to use to add to oil and the only oil I could find with tackifier was chain saw chain oil.  I don't need much and didn't want to buy a large quantity and I was lucky enough to find a friend with a little left in a gallon jug.  At the time, I didn't own a chain saw.  Now I do, so I can actually use a larger quantity now.  Go figure. 

I haven't tried the paper wheels out yet.  I'm waiting for the final application of oil to dry.  It is too late tonight to get into it, so in the morning.  I'm excited.  One of my motivations a year ago was a desire/need to sharpen ceramics.  But, the impetus to set the paper wheels up then stalled as I learned how to better use the Tormek leather honing wheel as I worked a couple of farmers markets and the need to sharpen ceramics disappeared. 

I'll have some time tomorrow to try them out, but won't be able to get into a more involved sharpening session.  I also have to do laundry, pay bills, split some wood and pack for a trip.  I'm going to Arkansas for a bamboo fly rod makers gathering.  One of the top rodmakers will be presenting a program on sharpening, as it pertains to plane irons.  I will be taking my BESS sharpness test instrument to supplement his presentation. 

Rick
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 07:54:13 am by RickKrung »
Quality is like buying oats.  If you want nice clean, fresh oats, you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse, that comes at a lower price.

Offline Sharpco

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Re: Taking the Plunge Into Paper Wheels
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2019, 08:22:32 am »
Did you feel any wobble? My Rikon low speed buffer has it.

Offline RickKrung

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Re: Taking the Plunge Into Paper Wheels
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2019, 08:32:45 am »
Did you feel any wobble? My Rikon low speed buffer has it.

I do not, at least not any more than most other grinders I've used.  But, it isn't a Baldor, so it isn't nearly as smooth as that.  The paper wheels have a little bit of wobble, but not much.  One of the bushings didn't press in smoothly and that wheel has the most wobble.  The two wheels I've set up with diamond paste run quite smoothly.  Razor Sharp does a good job of balancing their paper wheels.  I talked with the owner last year at length.  He claimed they have proprietary methods for balancing their wheels and I can vouch that they do run smooth, although I have nothing in the way of other paper wheels for comparison. 

It is a shame your buffer wobbles.  Buffers should run smoother than a grinder, me thinks.  Have you tried running it without any wheels mounted.  My Rikon grinder does run smoother without any wheels on it, but that is probably not surprising. 

Rick
Quality is like buying oats.  If you want nice clean, fresh oats, you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse, that comes at a lower price.

Offline Ken S

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Re: Taking the Plunge Into Paper Wheels
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2019, 04:37:12 pm »
Rick,

Good post.

Paper wheels have been on my to do list since I met Steve Bottorff.  I have been curious to know how they would work used dry on the grinding wheel side of the Tormek. (Incidentally, used without a water tray, both the T4 and T2 will accommodate a ten inch paper or felt wheel with a slightly faster 120 RPM motor.) The recommendation for the full speed grinder is to create enough heat to melt the wax with the carborundum and should not effect the honing medium.

I realize that cost is the reason, however, I am surprised how many users who will pay the price for a Tormek will not also pay the price for a Baldor buffer. Both are long term investments for a sharpener, and a Baldor buffer shouldn't cost more than an SJ-250

Ken
« Last Edit: October 12, 2019, 03:09:41 pm by Ken S »

Offline john.jcb

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Re: Taking the Plunge Into Paper Wheels
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2019, 05:17:08 pm »
I am very interested in the results you see Rick. I have been using Vadim's Tormek process with the FVB and I have been very happy with the sharpness I have achieved. Giving a customer knives back that are sharper than they were when new is rewarding. I have not jumped to the paper wheels yet. I am thinking of another route using the fine diamond paste on a new Tormek leather wheel. My working area is limited as I have 2 regular size workbenches and a small one for my grinder and drill press. I is used exclusively for reloading ammunition and the other for everything else.
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Offline Ken S

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Re: Taking the Plunge Into Paper Wheels
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2019, 03:38:53 pm »
Good comments, John.

When Steve was showing me how to use the paper wheels, I asked him if the entire process could be done with just a Tormek. He responded, yes, however using the paper wheels sped up the process. I think the main speed bump Steve was trying to circumvent was having to use the stone grader. He used the first paper wheel with its intended carborundum powder in wax for fine grinding and the second paper wheel for honing/polishing.

Steve did the farmers market circuit. Every Saturday morning he would sharpen over a hundred knives. He needed speed. Most of us can work at a less hectic pace. I think having a dedicated leather honing wheel for diamond paste has possibilities. Years ago, I tried using a separate leather honing wheel for valve grinding compound. It worked well enough. VGC cuts more aggressively than Tormek PA-70. It does a nice job of removing stain and scratches, more so than the finer Tormek compound. The Tormek compound leaves a slightly smoother, higher polished surface. For anyone using a T4, using more than one leather honing wheel is much more efficient if you purchase the quick connect plastic knob (a spare part for the T8) instead of using the standard issue T4 hex nut.

New products and techniques are emerging. We have seen the SB and SJ plus diamond wheels. We are starting to see changes in honing with diamond compounds. The Tormek continues evolving.

Ken

Offline Josu V

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Re: Taking the Plunge Into Paper Wheels
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2019, 08:43:29 pm »
One question about honing diamond compounds.

I´m in process with paper wheels. I use an oil based diamond compounds whith leather wheels of Tormek.

https://www.thk.hk/online-cart-dtl.php?cid=38&sid=61&ssid=0&id=498

Any problem to use this compounds in the Razor Sharp Paper wheels?

Regards
Abusus non tollit usum

Offline wootz

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Re: Taking the Plunge Into Paper Wheels
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2019, 09:13:47 pm »
One question about honing diamond compounds.

I´m in process with paper wheels. I use an oil based diamond compounds whith leather wheels of Tormek.

https://www.thk.hk/online-cart-dtl.php?cid=38&sid=61&ssid=0&id=498

Any problem to use this compounds in the Razor Sharp Paper wheels?

Regards

The THK diamond paste is what we use on paper wheels, good enough and not expensive.

Offline kwakster

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Re: Taking the Plunge Into Paper Wheels
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2019, 11:24:42 am »
The various high quality diamond compounds i use on dedicated Paper Wheels originate from this US company:

https://microstar2000.com/metallography/26/DIAPAT+Diamond+Paste

I have their 15, 6, 3, 1, and 1/4 micron compounds, both for use on ceramic & various high (vanadium) carbide volume steel knives.
Works quite well i can tell you.

The 1 micron diamond compound also gets used on the Tormek leather wheel.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 05:58:55 pm by kwakster »

Offline Josu V

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Re: Taking the Plunge Into Paper Wheels
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2019, 05:19:21 pm »

The THK diamond paste is what we use on paper wheels, good enough and not expensive.

Thank you very much, Vadim.

The various high quality diamond compounds i use on dedicated Paper Wheels originate from this US company:

https://microstar2000.com/metallography/26/DIAPAT+Diamond+Paste

I have their 15, 6, 3, 1, and 1/4 micron compounds, both for use on ceramic & various high (vanadium) carbide volume steel knives.
Works quite well i can tell you.

The 1 micron diamond compound also gets used on the Tormek letehr wheel.

Thank you too, Kwakster. Interesting web. The problem for me is that shipping costs and customs taxes are higher than price of the product (I´m in Europe).

Regards
Abusus non tollit usum

Offline kwakster

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Re: Taking the Plunge Into Paper Wheels
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2019, 05:58:07 pm »
Here is another and probably cheaper option: http://www.techdiamondtools.com/

They also have a Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/lapidarypaste

I did buy diamond powders from there twice already (using Paypal), and everything went perfect.
I'm probably going to try some of their diamond pastes in the future.

PS: i'm also in Europe, in the Netherlands to be more precise.
Here the customs tax threshold currently lies around 20 Euro's, so when you manage to stay below that in total your good.

Offline smurfs

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Re: Taking the Plunge Into Paper Wheels
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2019, 06:03:30 pm »
The problem for me is that shipping costs and customs taxes are higher than price of the product (I´m in Europe).

Josu, another option.

As you live in Europe you could buy THK compound via the home_tool store on ebay. Here's the link https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/thkdiamondtools3.

Shipping is free from Hong Kong and to get started you could buy the 13 bottle bundle containing a wide range of grits, some of which you may not need, so I'd suggest you specify the bottles of each grit you want during checkout. Total cost £43.00. I've ordered from them previously and did not have to pay import duty or VAT (too low value I guess).

Offline Josu V

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Re: Taking the Plunge Into Paper Wheels
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2019, 06:47:40 pm »

Josu, another option.

As you live in Europe you could buy THK compound via the home_tool store on ebay. Here's the link https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/thkdiamondtools3.

Shipping is free from Hong Kong and to get started you could buy the 13 bottle bundle containing a wide range of grits, some of which you may not need, so I'd suggest you specify the bottles of each grit you want during checkout. Total cost £43.00. I've ordered from them previously and did not have to pay import duty or VAT (too low value I guess).

Thank you, Smurfs.

Actually I have two THK diamond compounds: 1micron (yellow paste) and 0,25micron (grey paste). I bought it directly in THK web. Normally, this ships are free of customs costs to Europe.
Actually use it with Tormek Leather Wheels (LA.220), but I´m in process to make a Paper Wheel System in order to accelerate the sharpening process.

In any case, I appreciate the help

Regards
Abusus non tollit usum

Offline pipen

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Re: Taking the Plunge Into Paper Wheels
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2020, 12:10:40 pm »
I finally set up some of the paper wheels I've had for a year, for honing edges.  They are 10" wheels from Razor Sharp, purchased through Steve Bottorff/Sharpening Made Easy.  The wheels are about 1 1/4" wide.  They came with some plastic bushings, 3/4" to 5/8" but I prefer using stainless steel, so I made some from some tubing I had on hand.  The OD was fine, but the tubing is welded so the ID had irregularities, so I bored them out to a close but slip fit on the grinder shaft.  I used the 8" half-speed Rikon grinder I bought more than a year ago that I had set up with BGMs but found I could not control the heat along the apexes, so I quit using it for sharpening.  And now that I have the Viel 1x42 belt sander, I do not need the Rikon for roughing bevels. 


At first I thought I could use the nice flanges from the Rikon, but with the additional width of the paper wheels, there was not enough thread left for the nuts to be secure, so I machined some custom ones from aluminum, similar to the ones I made for mounting the Norton 3X grindstone on my T8. 


It was a lot more involved than I anticipated setting up the BGMs, per Wootz's instructions, attempting to have them come out with the vertical and horizontal distances he recommends.  I tried really hard to make both sides the same.  It was futile.  I think I'd like to try making better mounts later, but I just want to get on with using it all now.  They'll probably stay that way once I start using them.


I've relied heavily on information from Wootz, including diamond pastes.  I have set up the first two paper wheels, one with 5 micron and the other with a 50:50 mix of 0.5 and 0.25 micron.  The procedure for applying the paste came from Kwakster, via Wootz, which is to use an oil with tackifiers.  I could not find any tackifier product to use to add to oil and the only oil I could find with tackifier was chain saw chain oil.  I don't need much and didn't want to buy a large quantity and I was lucky enough to find a friend with a little left in a gallon jug.  At the time, I didn't own a chain saw.  Now I do, so I can actually use a larger quantity now.  Go figure. 

I haven't tried the paper wheels out yet.  I'm waiting for the final application of oil to dry.  It is too late tonight to get into it, so in the morning.  I'm excited.  One of my motivations a year ago was a desire/need to sharpen ceramics.  But, the impetus to set the paper wheels up then stalled as I learned how to better use the Tormek leather honing wheel as I worked a couple of farmers markets and the need to sharpen ceramics disappeared. 

I'll have some time tomorrow to try them out, but won't be able to get into a more involved sharpening session.  I also have to do laundry, pay bills, split some wood and pack for a trip.  I'm going to Arkansas for a bamboo fly rod makers gathering.  One of the top rodmakers will be presenting a program on sharpening, as it pertains to plane irons.  I will be taking my BESS sharpness test instrument to supplement his presentation. 

Rick

Hello,

Youst got my paper wheels. So i have 2 of them and dont plan to buy more at this time. If i understend right you recomend to cote  one with 5 micron and the other with a 50:50 mix of 0.5 and 0.25 micron paste?

Regards

Offline RickKrung

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Re: Taking the Plunge Into Paper Wheels
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2020, 05:51:59 pm »
I am by no means an expert with paper wheels.  The diamond pastes I used on them was based on recommendations from Knife Grinders, Wootz, here on this forum.  I did try the wheels out, but if I recall correctly, didn't really like them because the wheels were not particularly true so there was a bit of vibration.  Again, IIRC, Wootz said something like "good, that helps with the honing". 

However, very shortly thereafter, I mounted a 10" rock hard felt wheel on my my T8 and used 1 micron diamond paste on it.  The first stage of honing was using my SJ wheel, which Wootz says is equivalent to the 5 micron paste on the paper wheel.

So now I am not using the paper wheels at all, instead I'm doing all my honing on the T8, with the SJ wheel first and the felt wheel on the grindstone side.  I like this combination a lot better than the much faster, albeit, medium speed paper wheels on the Rikon grinder.  However, if I did not have the SJ wheel, I would be using that combination, 5 micron then 0.5/0.25 micron or 1 micron on the paper wheels. 

A further development, which I have not pursued yet, but very much want to is an idea that CBWX35 came up with, shared over on the Tormek Facebook site, to use the extension shaft from the Profile Honing Wheels kit (LA-120) to mount the felt wheel in place of the leather honing wheel.  This seems like a great way to use the combination of SJ/1 micron felt wheels that would reduce the wheel changes on the grindstone side. 

Rick
Quality is like buying oats.  If you want nice clean, fresh oats, you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse, that comes at a lower price.