Author Topic: General Concern  (Read 3110 times)

Offline Morne1312

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General Concern
« on: October 11, 2019, 01:40:51 pm »
Hi There.

Just a quick question that i haven't seen asked anywhere,

When using the coarse or fine diamond wheels and then moving to the SJ 250 Japanese water stone, do i need to empty the water tray?

Would the anti Corrosive concentrate adversely affect the SJ 250 or the SG 250 that i already have if i use the same water or must i empty the tray and use clean water for the normal stones?

Offline Ken S

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Re: General Concern
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2019, 04:39:34 pm »
Morne,

I have wondered the same thing. This seems an excellent post for support. I forwarded a screen shot to them and will keep you posted on their reply.

Ken

Offline john.jcb

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Re: General Concern
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2019, 04:41:08 pm »
I don't have these wheels so this is just my opinion not based on experience.

If I had these wheels I would change the water just to make sure nothing could damage the Japanese wheel. I would decant and reuse the water from the diamond wheel to be conservative with the anti-corrosion fluid. After spending so much on the extra wheels I would be careful with them.
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Offline Morne1312

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Re: General Concern
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2019, 05:05:29 pm »
Thank you so much for the help Ken and yes john I was also thinking of decanting for re use but then also comes the question how long can one re use before the efficacy of the anti corrosion liquid is obsolete and one needs new water and liquid.....
 .

Offline john.jcb

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Re: General Concern
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2019, 05:22:23 pm »
Thank you so much for the help Ken and yes john I was also thinking of decanting for re use but then also comes the question how long can one re use before the efficacy of the anti corrosion liquid is obsolete and one needs new water and liquid.....
 .

Again if it were me; I would mix a batch of fresh liquid and store it in a glass bottle. I would use this to replenish liquid lost in the grinding and decanting. By adding fresh solution it would keep the concentration close.  I am tempted to buy a fine diamond wheel and in my process I would remove it and dry it after use. I would do all my knives in a batch, change to the diamond wheel and finish them all. I would then remove the diamond wheel, dry and put it away.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 05:26:41 pm by john.jcb »
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Offline RickKrung

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Re: General Concern
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2019, 05:27:13 pm »
I have all the diamond wheels and yes, I do change the water whenever I switch away from or to them.  Mostly I do not want to contaminate the AC water and I do filter it using cone type coffee filters to keep the used AC water as clean as possible.  If I go to that trouble, why on earth would I use the AC water for anything but diamond wheels. 

Presumably, the only thing in the used AC water are steel particles and I suppose some fragments of fractured diamonds, but I would assume and hope the latter is a very small amount, as otherwise, the wheels would be wearing out quickly.  Hopefully, if the magnet is doing its job, most of the steel particles would be captured, but as I recall, there still seemed to be residue in the tray.  I do wipe it out when I change to the diamond wheels and put the AC water in, as I do not want contamination from previous stones/grinding.  I will pay more attention to this in the future. 

Good question about whether the AC water would adversely affect the SJ stone.  I agree, good question for support.  I hope we hear from them on this question. 

Rick
Quality is like buying oats.  If you want nice clean, fresh oats, you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse, that comes at a lower price.

Offline MikeK

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Re: General Concern
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2019, 09:06:52 am »
I was concerned about the effects of the AC additive on the SG stones when I eventually buy some diamond stones. To avoid the cross contamination, I’m going to buy another water tray and keep the systems separate. This might be overkill, but the cost of a second tray is minimal.

Offline van

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Re: General Concern
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2019, 11:44:40 am »
Perhaps off topic.
Sorry, but after using DE diamond stone it is advisable to use Japanese SJ stone or should it be advisable to go directly to the leather wheel? :-[
Kindly yours

Offline Ken S

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Re: General Concern
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2019, 03:07:00 pm »
These are all good, pertinent questions which deserve answers.

Before I purchased my T7, my primary means of sharpening were Norton water stones. I used them in a Veritas stone pond. The stone pond resembles a photographic tray. It had two metal rods with clamps to hold the stones. The stone being used was flipped above its rod. The unused stone was beneath its rod. I don't remember if it could hold a third stone. The usual progression was 1000, 4000, and 8000. The same water was used throughout, and the stones were stored wet in the water. No effort was made to segregate the water by stone grit size.

While I do not recall anyone complaining about cross contamination at the time, I would not feel comfortable working that way now. It may not actually present any practical problems, however, it would bother me.

My feelings about reusing anti corrosion solution water are primarily influenced by two life habits.

1) I am from a family of very thrifty people. Thrift has always been more than practical for us; it is a virtue.

2) My lifelong artistic passion is photography, especially black and white film photography. For much of my life, I enjoyed working in my home darkroom. I practiced careful archival processing, which included always starting with fresh chemicals. This was a mental attitude choice as much as a practical choice.

So, one side of me wants to reuse the anti corrosion solution and the other side abhors reusing chemicals. This dilemma is compounded by Tormek's almost complete silence on the issue. We do not have any substantial recommendations from Tormek.

My one practical experience with overuse was last December. I was sharpening with my T8 and diamond wheels one evening. I intended to continue the next day. I did not follow my usual practice of dumping the AC solution in a plastic jar and cleaning the trough. Instead I just lowered the trough to leave the wheel dry. Later that night I was in the ER and spent almost a week in the hospital. I did not have much energy for a couple weeks. The AC water completely evaporated, leaving the steel particles on the magnet and a film on the trough. Fortunately an old kitchen scrub brush and Dawn made a quick and complete cleanup. The round bottom cornerless trough of the T8 is a real aid in cleanup.

Should The Tormek ACC solution be reused?
If so, for how long?
Is there a problem with cross contamination?
What are the supposed benefits of using ACC with traditional stones?
Is there a problem with using ACC with the SJ 4000 grit stones?

I don't think Tormek anticipated the demand for diamond wheels. I can understand initial shipping delays. I hope that with these behind them, Tormek will devote more resources to informing its faithful existing customers about the essential techniques of using its diamond wheels.

Ken

Offline Morne1312

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Re: General Concern
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2019, 08:27:05 am »
Thanks for the informative reply and suggestions as usual ken

Offline Sebastien

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Re: General Concern
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2019, 11:15:33 am »
Hi everyone,

I just wanted to try to answer some of your questions regarding the ACC-150.

Should the ACC solution be reused?
Yes, it can be reused. When the water vaporizes the ACC stays in the water tray. You can the just refill the water tray. 

If so for how long?
It can be reused for quite some time. The only issue I experienced that since there is no preservative in the ACC-150 is that the water starts smelling after a while. Then I wash it and put new ACC-150 in.

Is there a problem with cross contamination?
No cross contamination is not an issue.

What are the benefits of using ACC with traditional stones?
The advantage of using ACC with traditional stones are that sometimes steel particles gets stuck on for example the SG stone which rust, and it gives it a reddish color. This is avoided when using the ACC-150 with traditional stones. Also, when sharpening tools with the ACC-150 some ACC is often left on the tools which helps preventing rust on the tools.

Is there a problem with using the ACC with the Japanese Waterstone?
No problem!

Finally, the only recommendation I want to stress is to lower the water tray when finished like always when working on the Tormek.

Stay sharp!

/Sébastien
« Last Edit: October 14, 2019, 11:26:59 am by Sebastien »

Offline john.jcb

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Re: General Concern
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2019, 03:44:36 pm »
Thank you Sebastien for the information.
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Offline Ken S

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Re: General Concern
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2019, 05:16:21 pm »
Another thank you, Sebastien.

Ken
« Last Edit: October 03, 2020, 06:19:59 pm by Ken S »

Offline ega

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Re: General Concern
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2020, 05:21:34 pm »
Short of starting a new thread, this one seems the most recent and appropriate place to ask some questions arising from my recent investment in a DF-250.
When unpacking the wheel I noticed what looked like traces of rust in the bore and, having cleaned it, decided to grease the spindle. This prompted me to wonder whether the wheel could be made of stainless material. I realize that the requirements of the electroplating process may preclude this but if practical it would certainly make life simpler (and cheaper - Chanel No 5 comes to mind when contemplating the concentrate).
The instructions for the ACC-150 say to mix it with water before filling the trough; is this so that the two can be physically stirred? When I made up the dilute concentrate I thought I detected a very faint blue tinge in the water and, after stirring, a white cloudy effect. What is this and would distilled water be preferable to tap water (I live in a hard water area)?
I have taken note of Sébastien's very helpful post above and assume that, albeit a Newbie, he is the Sébastien from Tormek.
I note that a smell indicates the need to change the concentrate; assuming that I retain my sense of smell Covid notwithstanding, what sort of smell should I be trying to detect?

Offline Ken S

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Re: General Concern
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2020, 07:13:48 pm »
Looking back at the replies, Sebastien is the same Sebastien doing the Tormek online classes. I sent him a PM requesting that he answer ega's last reply. Tormek doesn't work weekends, so it will probably be sometime next week before we hear from him.

Ken