Author Topic: Sharpening Turning Tools  (Read 303 times)

Offline Rick_B

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Sharpening Turning Tools
« on: November 10, 2019, 06:59:27 pm »
I've spent some time watching the Jeff Farris video and looking on the internet and came away very confused about the type of tools and the various grinds.  I am a novice turner and will initially be focused on spindle turning.  I have a PM 90 lathe and some existing tools.  I separated the tools into major categories of gouges, skews, parting tools, scrapers and who knows :).  The biggest area of confusion for me right now is the various types of gouges and grinds.  In my mind I have categorized gouge types as Spindle and bowl.  Within spindle I have roughing, standard and detail - the difference being the grind.

Of the gouges I have (6 total) 2 are identified as spindle gouges - the others are a question mark to me.  I think a bowl gouge has a much deeper flute than a spindle gouge but some of mine are hard to tell.  I'm attaching some pictures.  I think all of them are spindle gouges but I may be mistaken?

Any thoughts?  Once I know what I have we can discuss grinds

Thanks
Rick
« Last Edit: November 10, 2019, 07:01:25 pm by Rick_B »

Offline AKMike

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Re: Sharpening Turning Tools
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2019, 09:15:45 pm »
They all look like spindle gouges to me, too, with the possible exception of the second picture. Since you are just starting out as a turner, pick a gouge and shape/sharpen it to the standard profile as shown in the Tormek manual - 2-65-A. Notice that those settings are for standard profile spindle and bowl gouges. The bottom gouge in your pictures looks like a version of a spindle roughing gouge, so sharpen it as one. Spindle and bowl gouges can be used for spindles and bowls, with the exception of any gouge that has a flat tang instead of a round shank - those are for spindle use only. A flat tang is not strong enough and can break when used on a bowl, possibly causing injury.

If you are in the USA, check here to see if you can find a local club. The members there will be able to provide lots of help. https://www.woodturner.org/page/Chapters

Be careful, woodturning is quite addicting.

Mike

Offline RichColvin

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Re: Sharpening Turning Tools
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2019, 02:38:10 am »
Rick,

I catalogued a lot of information that ma be useful.  It’s at http://www.SharpeningHandbook.info/


Kind regards,
Rich
---------------------------
Rich Colvin
www.SharpeningHandbook.info - a reference guide for sharpening
www.OTBoK.info - help those getting started in ornamental turning -- to make that journey easier.

You are born weak & frail, and you die weak & frail.  What you do between those is up to you.

Online Twisted Trees

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Re: Sharpening Turning Tools
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2019, 10:39:20 am »
All spindle gouges, and a mix of fingernail and standard grind. This is a good thing for starting out, number them and keep notes as you experiment with different grind setup's. You can then compare them in use to find your perfect recipe. Word of caution, at least one of them is the poor quality type given away with cheap lathes, the metal is inferior so only compare immediately after sharpening.

 

Offline Rick_B

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Re: Sharpening Turning Tools
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2019, 02:58:46 pm »
TT - I'm curious whixh is the low quality steel - I think I know but not sure.

As far as grinds go - there is lots of terminology for spindle gouges - standard, fingernail, detail, roughing.  I need to get a better understanding of this but I think

Roughing is a simple bevel with no wings - this provides more meat at the bevel for square to round turning (not sure if this is referred to as standard?)

Fingernail - the sides of the flutes are swept back to allow better access to spindle details.  there are varying degrees of the swept back wings

Detail - just a more extreme version of fingernail

Rick
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 03:02:42 pm by Rick_B »

Offline Rick_B

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Re: Sharpening Turning Tools
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2019, 03:07:12 pm »
Rick,

I catalogued a lot of information that ma be useful.  It’s at http://www.SharpeningHandbook.info/


Kind regards,
Rich

Rich 0=- thanks - what a ton of good information

Rick

Offline Rick_B

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Re: Sharpening Turning Tools
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2019, 04:51:23 pm »
I've attached some pictures of the existing grinds with some annotations of what I think they are.  The first 4 all have tangs and from what I have read they should never be used on bowls.  The last two are round bar and theoretically could be used on spindles or bowls.  As I said above I am not particularly interested in bowls at this point but wanted to be sure I am understanding the concepts and terminology.  I also included what I "think" the grind is and generally what type of work they would be used for.  Please feel free to comment/discuss what I have gotten right/wrong.  For example - what I am calling a roughing gouge could likely be used for some initial level of detail but as the need arises to get into close spaces the fingernail type grind becomes necessary because of the swept back flutes reducing/eliminating interference?


Online Twisted Trees

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Re: Sharpening Turning Tools
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2019, 06:14:38 pm »
TT - I'm curious whixh is the low quality steel - I think I know but not sure.


It really is hard to tell from pictures, you will know because 5 minutes use after sharpening it will give poor cuts!  but I think the first and last ones are the poor steel ones, often made from a flat that is pressed into the curved shape of a gouge, rather than milled, and often from steel that just won't hold an edge for long. I bought some when learning to sharpen it was much more fun grinding away cheap metal and learning on those, they cut fine for a few minutes, but just don't hold for long.

Key difference between a spindle gouge and a spindle roughing gouge is the tang, if the section going into the handle is not round it is a spindle roughing gouge. and as such must never be used on the face of a piece of wood or inside a bowl / hollow form only ever use on external spindle work (for roughing down square stock to round)

A spindle gouge or bowl gouge is milled out of round bar so it has an un-milled round section going into the handle.

Standard grind is literally set the angle (usually 45°) and roll the bevel exactly as you would the roughing gouge, except you roll a couple of degrees extra which just knocks off the top corners. exaggerate that and you have the fingernail profile which really requires a jig to keep consistent though some do it freehand (I do on some favourites that are so worn they just won't fit in the jig anymore!)

Many old school turners shun the fingernail profile, though it is in common use these days. The key thing is that your grind MUST give a slightly convex profile to the side wings, if it's concave it becomes a hook tool which you don't want near a piece of wood spinning at 1000rpm!

A detail gouge is just a smaller diameter one usually ¼" with a shallow flute that gives a longer bevel.

Depending on many factors e.g. your height the lathe height in comparison and even the size and type of wood the guide angle of 45° may not be the right angle, it can be anywhere between 40 to 50° ish. that suits you. Don't ignore good advice on angles for things but do be sure that they work for you and not afraid to modify if they don't. I recently found out that I have been sharpening my parting tools at a non spec angle for about 10 years, so long that I couldn't remember what it should be! I re-profiled my 6mm parting tool to 30° specifically for a cut I did on lace bobbins, over time my thinner ones evolved into the same angle, all worked perfectly fine for me. Then someone asked what they were supposed to be, I knew it wasn't what I used but could not for the life of me remember what the standard was (20 or 25° depending on manufacturer)



   
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 06:24:44 pm by Twisted Trees »

Offline Rick_B

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Re: Sharpening Turning Tools
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2019, 06:52:11 pm »
TT - that's a lot of information.  I have 4 gouges that have tangs (I think) - a craftsman and 3 buck brothers.  Based on your info they are all roughing gouges.  I get thta they should not be used on bowl interiors but wouldn't the grind allow them tp be used on spindles for some level of detail work versus just roughing?

Rick

Online Twisted Trees

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Re: Sharpening Turning Tools
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2019, 10:54:11 pm »
There have been a couple of accidents in the UK where a catch led to the flat tang "springing" leading to bigger catch and bad outcomes. So the rule here for public demo or teaching is they should only be used for safe down the line roughing. Not saying that is exactly how they are used in my workshop. But in public I obey the rules...

I think as long as it's a good brand and you are sensible with it there us little to no risk. Some of the cheap tools I have seen though I fully understand the risk, no ferals, poor quality wood handles, and connections of 1/2 or so between wood and metal. Any flexing can go from annoying to dangerous very quickly.

So my advice to a new turner is don't use them except flat for turning stock to round (I.e. dont roll beads), my advice to an experienced turner is shit has happened, probably on cheap tools but be sure of what you have and make your own handles!

Actually my advice to new turners is make your own handles too, nothing more satisfying to make than something you hold daily.

Offline Ken S

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Re: Sharpening Turning Tools
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2019, 11:16:30 pm »
Several years ago, I wanted to upgrade from my 3/4” carbon gouge to a larger hss roughing gouge. I purchased a pair of Sorby roughing gouges, a 1 1/4” and a 3/4”. The 3/4” was bent. I surmised a previous owner had tried to use it with a bowl blank. Straightening it was surprisingly easy, but my conscience and brain finally prevailed. I purchased a new unhandled 3/4” roughing gouge and switched. Safety should always be job one.

For the record, I agree with TT's recommendation to turn your own handles.

Ken

Offline Rick_B

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Re: Sharpening Turning Tools
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2019, 06:00:11 pm »
This morning I did a little practice on the standard grind (square grind) gouges using the svs-50.  That went pretty well.

Then I was going to try a finger grind using the svd-186.  Picture of Grind 4 above was the gouge I was going to use.  It had a label from years ago indicating jig setting 2, projection 55 and hole B.  These settings were based on the older vd-185.  I set everything up based on these parameters using the new SVD-186.  When I visually looked at the fit of the existing bevel to the stone - it was way off.  The rear of the bevel was way off the stone - I would have to change the jig setting to zero to get even close.  Is there something I am missing in terms of set up?  I"m assuming something went south when this was initially sharpened.  I would like to get back to a more standard grind but it seems there would be a lot of metal removal required.  I do have a bench grinder Tormek set up - do I need to use that to reshape?

Thanks
Rick

Offline Ken S

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Re: Sharpening Turning Tools
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2019, 10:56:17 pm »
The settings are the same on the SVD-185 and 186. (They both use the same TTS-100 setting tool and instruction book. Incidentally, assuming "Thompson" is Doug Thompson of Ohio, Thompson tools are quality. The Buck name has always enjoyed a good reputation, although the older Buck tools are high carbon steel.

Ken

Offline AKMike

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Re: Sharpening Turning Tools
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2019, 11:26:07 pm »
It's possible that the previous sharpener did not have the stop ring all the way up the shaft. Or, the settings on the SVD-185 were continuous, not discrete like the SVD-186, and were subject to eyeball error.

Mike

Offline Rick_B

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Re: Sharpening Turning Tools
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2019, 12:36:58 am »
It's possible that the previous sharpener did not have the stop ring all the way up the shaft. Or, the settings on the SVD-185 were continuous, not discrete like the SVD-186, and were subject to eyeball error.

Mike

Mike -previous turner was me :) so it ios not only possible but likely that errors were made.

I would like to get the gouge back to the standard tormek settings - is the best approach to simply  set the values and start on the tormek wheel or use a bench grinder first?  I'm concerned about overheating on the bech grinder.

Rick