Author Topic: Ellsworth Grind with SVD-185 Not Possible?  (Read 1726 times)

Offline SmokeGSU

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Ellsworth Grind with SVD-185 Not Possible?
« on: January 09, 2020, 05:13:36 pm »
Hey all! I'm hoping for some feedback on using the SVD-185 jig. I'm kind of stumped as to how to proceed with grinding my gouges at this point. I've got my jig and everything set up as the sharpening book indicates (not in front of the book, but from memory I believe the settings were JS=6, 75mm, and hole A). I have a Tormek T3 grinder. I'm finding that it's impossible to grind the left side of the gouge because the gouge is literally rolling off the right side of the stone as I try to rotate the gouge to sharpen the left half of the gouge. I have the jig oriented the way that it's shown in the pictures and videos, so I don't believe that I'm using it backwards or anything. I was reading that the newer model of the jig, the SVD-186, has a shorter "tube" (for lack of a better word) that goes on the supporting rod and is supposed to work better with the smaller Tormeks like the T4, so maybe getting the updated version will resolve the problem? Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Offline Ken S

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Re: Ellsworth Grind with SVD-185 Not Possible?
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2020, 07:27:04 pm »
Welcome to the forum, Smoke.

When I first became aware of the SVD-185, I thought the combination of it and the TTS-100 setting tool was the most advanced combination in the Tormek lineup. Although it is still a tool tool, it is in second place when compared with the SVD-186. Of all the Tormek lineup which I have used and reviewed, the SVD-186 has been the only tool I have given an unqualified buy recommendation to, even for users happily using the older design.

You could solve your fall off problem by cutting off some of your SVD-185 tube. I have both jigs. If you choose to do this, I will gladly measure both for you and post the cutoff measurement. However, this would be short sighted. The shorter tube for T3/4 users is only one of the redesigned features. The hex key screw of my 185 is somewhat stripped out. The jig setting can slip. The 186 uses a positive ratchet stop set up with a locking knob. This is my favorite improvement. The 186 is made of zinc. It is heavier and has a satisfying feeling of solid heft. Going by memory (I'm away from my shop.) I recall that the clamp was also redesigned. It works better with small gouges and, I think, will also handle larger gouges.

In case I have been unclear, I recommend the SVD-186.  :)

Ken

Offline Twisted Trees

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Re: Ellsworth Grind with SVD-185 Not Possible?
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2020, 09:00:10 pm »
I am just on the verge of beginning to think that Ken likes the SVD-186  ;D

To be honest you struggle to get a full blown Ellsworth grind using jigs on my T7 so I suspect it is not viable on a smaller unit. I have also been using the 40 40 grind which is also best done freehand (well semi free, use the table).

What I did was use the jigs to get the initial 3 facets close to where I wanted them, then switch to freehand for the finish. as I never sharpen, only polish my tools (i.e. I never let them get blunt) maintaining the edge freehand with a bit of marker pen ink when needed becomes easy. I only use Ellsworth on one gouge it's the big one for cutting 2" shavings off big bowls, so not overused. and I have a couple of 40/40 gouges so it is not a major task to keep them as intended without a jig every 6th or 8th "polish" I recheck my angles and may do a little sharpening if I have let them slip but never to the extent of reshaping them.

I think Ken may recommend the SVD-186 though!  ;)

Offline SmokeGSU

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Re: Ellsworth Grind with SVD-185 Not Possible?
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2020, 09:29:21 pm »
Welcome to the forum, Smoke.

When I first became aware of the SVD-185, I thought the combination of it and the TTS-100 setting tool was the most advanced combination in the Tormek lineup. Although it is still a tool tool, it is in second place when compared with the SVD-186. Of all the Tormek lineup which I have used and reviewed, the SVD-186 has been the only tool I have given an unqualified buy recommendation to, even for users happily using the older design.

You could solve your fall off problem by cutting off some of your SVD-185 tube. I have both jigs. If you choose to do this, I will gladly measure both for you and post the cutoff measurement. However, this would be short sighted. The shorter tube for T3/4 users is only one of the redesigned features. The hex key screw of my 185 is somewhat stripped out. The jig setting can slip. The 186 uses a positive ratchet stop set up with a locking knob. This is my favorite improvement. The 186 is made of zinc. It is heavier and has a satisfying feeling of solid heft. Going by memory (I'm away from my shop.) I recall that the clamp was also redesigned. It works better with small gouges and, I think, will also handle larger gouges.

In case I have been unclear, I recommend the SVD-186.  :)

Ken

Thanks for the input Ken! I've been fortunate with my 185 that I can re-position the jig-setting number without loosening the hex screw. I can move it between the numbers and it's still snug enough of a fit that it won't lose its spot where I've moved it to. Maybe I just got super lucky with the luck of the draw? I've had it for what feels like 7 or 8 years and used it quite often, and it's still holding up well. If the major differences between the 185 and 186 are the outside of that tube width and also the screw piece that secures the gouge to the jig (I've seen pictures where it's more of a curved bar now that the t-type screw on the 185), it may be in my interest to cut the tube down to a smaller width so that the left-side of the gouge can be ground... as I said, right now with those higher angles and jig settings, I can't even roll the gouge on its left side to grind it because it'll go off the right side of the wheel. To date, I've mostly been trying to stick with the original grinds of the tools when I get them, but now I'm trying to experiment with the Ellsworth profile but running into the mentioned issues.

Offline RichColvin

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Re: Ellsworth Grind with SVD-185 Not Possible?
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2020, 11:32:30 pm »
SmokeGSU,

With higher JS numbers (i.e., >4), you will have to either
  • grind each side separately & match them at the nose, or
  • move the jig along the USB as you grind the edge on the grindstone.

I generally do #1 at the start, & then #2 at the end.  Just be sure to watch the wings to ensure they are similar.

Option 2 feels funny at first, but once you get the hang of it, it is pretty easy.

Kind regards,
Rich
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You are born weak & frail, and you die weak & frail.  What you do between those is up to you.

Offline SmokeGSU

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Re: Ellsworth Grind with SVD-185 Not Possible?
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2020, 03:00:39 pm »
SmokeGSU,

With higher JS numbers (i.e., >4), you will have to either
  • grind each side separately & match them at the nose, or
  • move the jig along the USB as you grind the edge on the grindstone.

I generally do #1 at the start, & then #2 at the end.  Just be sure to watch the wings to ensure they are similar.

Option 2 feels funny at first, but once you get the hang of it, it is pretty easy.

Kind regards,
Rich

Thanks for the input Rich! The issue is that I'm not physically capable of moving the jig any further to the left on the USB when I'm trying to a 60deg angle because of the support bar that actually attaches to the Tormek prevents it from sliding any further. I have the T-3, which I believe is the prior version of the T-4, and my understanding is that T-3/4 is smaller than the T-8. Grinding the right side of the gouge is no problem because there's so much extra length to the USB on that side. I'm not in front of my machine at the moment, but I found a video (see screenshot attached) that can somewhat highlight where the issue is - as Ken pointed out, I believe the problem is the fact that the jig's tube that fits on the USB is longer on the 185 than on the newer models, and this extra length is where the problem comes from because it prevents you from moving the jig far enough on the left side to do a 60deg angle.

Offline Ken S

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Re: Ellsworth Grind with SVD-185 Not Possible?
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2020, 04:47:29 pm »
Smoke,
I measured the two jigs. The 186's tube is 1/2” (12mm) shorter.
Best of luck with your jigectomy!
Ken