Author Topic: T-8 Recommended minimum equipment?  (Read 1106 times)

Offline klipsch21

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T-8 Recommended minimum equipment?
« on: December 06, 2019, 03:43:59 pm »
Just picked up a new T-8 and would like to start sharpening my knives and maybe some of my friends.

I am going to buy a FVB.
I am assuming I need to buy at least 1 more grinding wheel? Do I need any more leather wheels?

I have watched this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UckPmizllk0 where I see him using only stock Tormek stone and leather wheel however I have a question about conditioning the stone.
It seems he uses the stock wheel, then he conditions it with 1000grit diamond stone. My question is when you go to sharpen another knife do you have to recondition it back to a lower grit?

Offline Ken S

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Re: T-8 Recommended minimum equipment?
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2019, 05:54:12 pm »
Welcome to the forum, Klipsch.

I suspect my reply is not what you are hoping to hear. Please accept it in the honest, helpful way I intend it to be.

You are asking very good questions, which more and more members are asking. Please understand that I have the highest regard for Wootz. His research and technique have advanced knife sharpening, in my opinion, beyond levels imagined by Tormek. However, Wootz accomplished this through years of focused work. Look at Wootz'earliest posts on this forum. He encountered some of the same difficulties as the rest of us mortals. He combined his educational background as a trained researcher with hard work.

I would suggest that you add only the regular SVM-45 knife jig, if one did not come with your T8. I would not purchase an FVB or extra grinding wheels or leather honing wheels AT THIS TIME. "At this time" is the key phrase. Learn how to use your Tormek and how to sharpen your knives. Really learn these skills, not just a couple quick run throughs.

One of the most skilled knife sharpeners I know uses his Tormek with only the original SG wheel, stone grader and Tormek PA-70 honing compound. He has used this combination for years. (He uses more pressure and compound than most users. He also uses the stone grader more.) He keeps his grinding wheel graded to "600 grit", an approximate middle grade.

After you really learn how to sharpen knives with your basic Tormek,as has been done for almost fifty years, you will be able to get the best answers to your questions, your own expedience.

Keep sharpening and keep posting.

Ken

Offline john.jcb

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Re: T-8 Recommended minimum equipment?
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2019, 08:33:52 pm »
Another opinion from the gallery. I agree with Ken that the standard knife jig is great for most knives. I like to use the Long Knife Jig SVM-140 on larger Chefs knives and longer old kitchen knives that are quite thin. While not always necessary I do use it.

I have managed with one stone for quite some time. I will grade it coarse when a knife is very bad, however for most knives I do the majority of work at the mid grade (where it seems to naturally go) and grade fine for the last couple of light passes. When I started I found that grinding was actually not that difficult due to the jigs. Mastering the lifting of the handle for the tip took some practice but you improve quickly. I did find honing to be a bit more challenging to master. I now can hone pretty well freehand. However, I honestly cannot match the sharpness I get with a jig and the FVB. I do not have a BESS tester but I think I am in the razor sharp ballpark.

I have periods where I want to achieve the level of sharpness that Wootz gets but I honestly don't think I am far off using the standard setup and the FVB. I am contemplating getting the fine diamond wheel and/or the Japanese wheel and an additional leather wheel for use with finer diamond paste. My desire to buy these is tempered every time I get knives that have been severely abused and I need to remove a lot of material. Will customers that clearly mistreat their knives appreciate the difference in sharpness? I somehow doubt it as they are comparing their original butter knife sharpness pieces to the ones I give them that are really close to that razors edge.

Because I enjoy meat cutting I buy subprimal cuts and do my own butchering (it is also cheaper). Here I appreciate the razor edge and how easily the meat is cut. In the end it will come down to how much you want to invest to get that last bit of sharpness. As with most areas of performance that last 1-5% of sharpness will cost you as much as your initial investment.
Sharpen the knife blade
Hone edge until perfection
Cut with joy and ease

Offline klipsch21

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Re: T-8 Recommended minimum equipment?
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2019, 09:39:52 pm »
Thanks for the reply guys. I really appreciate it. I'm thinking I'll probably get the FVB to start.

Offline john.jcb

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Re: T-8 Recommended minimum equipment?
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2019, 11:28:15 pm »
I think you will be amazed at the sharpness you can achieve using the standard stone and leather wheel along with Wootz’s process and FVB.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 07:11:29 pm by john.jcb »
Sharpen the knife blade
Hone edge until perfection
Cut with joy and ease

Offline Josu V

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Re: T-8 Recommended minimum equipment?
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2019, 07:07:27 pm »
I think (too) that you can obtain amazing results with Tormek T8 and original equipment.
The FVB is essential at this time in my work, but I think that you must practice first in order to understand the way to obtain good results, and then, when you control the process, go for FVB and Wootz´s "system".

Hi End knives and "exotics" steels, need other wheels, but before try to sharpen this kind of knives, is necessary to learn with mainstream  knives.

Only one example of results with standard equipment and FVB. Probably sharper than a lot of people need...

https://youtu.be/BJ0XUoXIDVs

Regards
Abusus non tollit usum

Offline Georgie

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Re: T-8 Recommended minimum equipment?
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2020, 09:14:50 pm »
Ken, Josu...inestimable help and advice, You guys probably just saved me some serious change, and totally refocused my approach even though I have FVB on the way. I would ask one question regarding the use of the FVB, I'd be interested in hearing a recommendation for a vernier depth caliper to be used with the FVB when I become proficient enough with the basic system. Thanks in advance.

Offline john.jcb

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Re: T-8 Recommended minimum equipment?
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2020, 04:04:00 pm »
I have an older Craftsman digital caliper.
Price is a consideration but I think almost any caliper you can buy will do the job. Make sure you get one that is metric.
Sharpen the knife blade
Hone edge until perfection
Cut with joy and ease

Offline Ken S

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Re: T-8 Recommended minimum equipment?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2020, 05:55:32 pm »
Digital calipers are usually designed for machinists, with much tighter tolerances than knife sharpeners require. I normally overbuy machinist tools, however, in this case, as inexpensive tool should be up to the task.

Ken

Offline RickKrung

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Re: T-8 Recommended minimum equipment?
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2020, 07:39:57 pm »
I would recommend dial or digital calipers, not vernier.  Vernier tools are very reliable but are a pain to read, comparatively and dial and digital ones are available very reasonably.  I used import dial calipers for years until I just felt like having good ones, Starrett/Mitutoyo.  I am a machinist, so actually have use for these better ones.  I have a couple of digital micrometers that measure to 0.00005".

I would, however, caution the use of nicer tools, like calipers, around water.  I have several digital measuring instruments from iGaging, calipers, dial indicators and angle cubes, that I use in machining, woodworking and sharpening.  I've had no problems with them and they work as well as the more expensive name brands.  There are lots of "budget" importers selling calipers, micrometers, digital scales and the like.  If you get any caliper, make sure it operates in metric units (as well as imperial).  Most have a button that switch between units. 

I do recommend learning to use the basic stones/honing wheel as others have recommended before getting too deep into spending money on accessories.  VERY excellent results have been achieved by many for years with the basics. 

Carry on and keep us informed of your progress and questions.

Rick
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 07:44:15 pm by RickKrung »
Quality is like buying oats.  If you want nice clean, fresh oats, you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse, that comes at a lower price.

Offline Ken S

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Re: T-8 Recommended minimum equipment?
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2020, 07:44:09 pm »
Good post, Rick.

Ken

Offline Georgie

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Re: T-8 Recommended minimum equipment?
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2020, 01:18:53 am »
Good post, Rick.

Ken

Ken, Rick, I do agree, plenty of time to research for the necessary FVB gear while I get the feel of a basic setup. The basic setup is  a T8, the SVM-45, a rotating base, and okay one splurge the SJ-250! :)  oh yeah and like two Irwin chisels! Lol

Offline Georgie

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Re: T-8 Recommended minimum equipment?
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2020, 01:24:37 am »
... If you get any caliper, make sure it operates in metric units (as well as imperial).  Most have a button that switch between units. 


Carry on and keep us informed of your progress and questions.

Rick

Rick, thanks for that input. I’d simply ask what length/size caliper is going to cover the vast majority of FVB sharpening applications and measurements? Given that the 250mm wheel diam. Is part of the FVB equation I have to assume one with that minimum range.

Offline RickKrung

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Re: T-8 Recommended minimum equipment?
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2020, 05:57:57 am »
Rick, thanks for that input. I’d simply ask what length/size caliper is going to cover the vast majority of FVB sharpening applications and measurements? Given that the 250mm wheel diam. Is part of the FVB equation I have to assume one with that minimum range.

I think that if you only have one caliper it should be 12" digital that will display both inch and metric units.  I have three 12"ers, two digital, one dial (does inch only).  I have a total of six calipers, five digital.  I've posted about calipers being used for projection setting and USB height setting on multiple occasions.  I've also posted about using woodworking marking gauges, setting the distances using calipers, but using the marking gauge to transfer those settings to the knife jigs or USB positions. 

Below is a huge dump of information on the calipers and marking gauges I use for sharpening.  Sorry, it is quite long, so I'll sign off before.

Rick

iGaging EZCal 6" digital calipers
http://www.igaging.com/page14.html

iGaging OriginCal 12" digital calipers
http://www.igaging.com/page12.html

Aerospace 6" & 12" dial calipers.  The Amazon listing says not currently available.  I got these years ago for for the 12" one for situations in my metal working where my Mitutoyo calipers weren't long enough.  I do not use these any longer, since getting the iGaging units, but I do use the dual carrying case they came in for storing and transporting the two iGaging calipers above. 
https://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Steel-Caliper-Shockproof-Calipers/dp/B00DR19ZR8

SPI 0" to 12" Electronic Depth Gage.  The photo that comes up with the link below has the double feet, which is not what I have.  I have the one with no feet.  Click on the "More info in catalog" link on the page.  What I have is at the last one on the page, item # 35650415.  I have used this for setting the height of the vertical USB from the top of the T8 case.  I like the relieved angle of the no foot type so get the foot of the caliper away from the fillet at the base of the USB clamp.  I posted about it on the forum.  The extra wide arms make for spanning the width of the USB better than any other calipers I've seen. 
https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/35650415

I don't use the SPI for the USB height setting much any more.  I don't use calipers "directly" for any of the project or height settings anymore either.  Instead, I use woodworking marking gauges, like the ones from Lee Valley/Veritas.
https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/marking-gauges/59455-veritas-standard-wheel-marking-gauge

These come with sharp, hardened wheels on the end for scribing a deep line in the wood at the set distances.  Very handy for woodworking.  I have taken that wheel off and substituted a 3/4" stainless steel fender washer.  I use this for setting the knife jig projection.  The fender washer doesn't scratch anything and the extra width allows me to hold the shaft along the underside of the jigs, keeping things parallel, with the fender washer against the stop collar and the marking gauge head against the knife edge. 

Using the marking gauges does two things that I like.  My calipers never touch any grinding wheel and they never get wet. Transfering distances from the calipers to the marking gauges introduces some error, but for the precision that is needed for sharpening, I believe it is irrelevant.  The angled foot on the 12" SPI calipers serves a specific purpose as mentioned above. 

A couple posts I've made regarding calipers, that I think are relevant. 

About the 12" calipers and the marking gauges
https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=3520.msg22447#msg22447

Using the SPI depth calipers for setting the vertical USB height
https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=2962.msg25025#msg25025


Quality is like buying oats.  If you want nice clean, fresh oats, you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse, that comes at a lower price.

Offline Georgie

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Re: T-8 Recommended minimum equipment?
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2020, 04:56:36 pm »

I've also posted about using woodworking marking gauges, setting the distances using calipers, but using the marking gauge to transfer those settings to the knife jigs or USB positions. 

Below is a huge dump of information on the calipers and marking gauges I use for sharpening.  Sorry, it is quite long, so I'll sign off before.

Rick

Rick et al,

Ken has always encouraged me to post questions and search whenever possible. I sincerely do appreciate the time and oft duplicated patient answers that many people, yourself included provide for members new to the Tormek systems. I'll try not to take that for granted.

George